Requesting timeout on layup situation???

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Sooo, you see A1 with the ball, then hear and see A-HC request a time-out, and just as you blow the whistle, A1 has just released the ball on a try that goes in his basket--how are you adjudicating that scenario?

Grant Team A's TO request because there was PC by A1 when A-HC made the TO request. Any action after the request was made is not relevant unless it is a Intentional or Flagrant Foul.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Grant Team A's TO request because there was PC by A1 when A-HC made the TO request. Any action after the request was made is not relevant unless it is a Intentional or Flagrant Foul.

By rule, the ball doesn't actually become dead until the whistle is blown by the official. There is no provision in the dead ball rule for the ball to become dead at either the request, or at the granting, only for an official's whistle. Everything is relevant until the whistle is sounded.

We can certainly debate whether, or not, the official should verify that the ball is still in player control after verifying that the request is being made by the head coach.

That specific issue is certainly up for debate. But please let's not use that specific issue to muddy the water in regard to when the ball actually becomes dead.

We cannot debate when the ball becomes dead. That's already in black and white in the rulebook. It becomes dead when the whistle sounds, there is no such thing as a "retroactive dead ball". The ball neither becomes dead at the request, nor at the granting, unless either happens simultaneously with the whistle.

You can look it up (Casey Stengel).

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

By rule, the ball doesn't actually become dead until the whistle is blown by the official. There is no provision in the dead ball rule for the ball to become dead at either the request, or at the granting, only for an official's whistle. Everything is relevant until the whistle is sounded.

We can certainly debate whether, or not, the official should verify that the ball is still in player control after verifying that the request is being made by the head coach.

That specific issue is certainly up for debate. But please let's not use that specific issue to muddy the water in regard to when the ball actually becomes dead.

We cannot debate when the ball becomes dead. That's already in black and white in the rulebook. It becomes dead when the whistle sounds, there is no such thing as a "retroactive dead ball". The ball neither becomes dead at the request, nor at the granting, unless either happens simultaneously with the whistle.

You can look it up (Casey Stengel).

You can debate it or not debate it but this is one of those examples of the rule says one thing but the way it is done is another. We had a long discussion about this a while back as it related to the player going out of bounds asking for timeout. He asked for timeout a split second before he lands out of bounds, but he lands before the whistle. Do you give him the timeout or call the violation? A strict reading of the rule says one thing but the way things are says another.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

... the player going out of bounds asking for timeout. He asked for timeout a split second before he lands out of bounds, but he lands before the whistle. Do you give him the timeout or call the violation? A strict reading of the rule says one thing but the way things are says another.

Great point just another ref, and this is specifically allowed by rule in high school. We can't always be expected to sound the whistle before the player hits the floor, and yet the ball becomes immediately dead as soon as he hits the floor. Certainly an example of a "retroactive dead ball".

I'm giving him the timeout.

Also, here in my little corner of 100% IAABO Connecticut, we're taught and expected to verify that the ball is still in player control after verifying that the request is being made by the head coach.

This dead ball issue has become quite interesting.

[ilyazhito]

I'm not giving retroactive timeouts. If I blew the whistle before the shot/OOB/act that caused A(the requesting team) to lose possession, THEN, I can grant the timeout, otherwise, I open up a can of worms that I need to explain to the opposing coach (and possibly my supervisor) about why the shot didn't count, or why the other team doesn't get an obvious steal, etc. If I cannot blow the whistle for the timeout request before A loses possession, no timeout.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

I'm not giving retroactive timeouts.

I get what you're saying, and would probably agree with you in most situations, but in just another ref's post specifically regarding the airborne player going out of bounds asking for timeout, the "rule of thumb" (as opposed to the NFHS rules) is that the hustling player grabbing a ball about to go out of bounds, and while airborne yelling loudly for a timeout to avoid an out of bounds violation, is always granted the request, even if the whistle is after the player hits the floor out of bounds (I've seen officials turn away while sounding their whistle, never actually seeing the player land on the floor).

Some things are debatable. This specific one isn't. Pick your battles. This play has been called this way, and only this way, since James Naismith nailed up the peach basket.

It's not in the NFHS Rulebook, it's not in the NFHS Casebook, that's probably not the answer to give on a written test, rather it's covered in Basketball Officiating 101 and only comes with understanding the game, and experience, with a dash of intent and purpose.

To do otherwise would open up a much bigger can of completely different worms, venomous worms, and it's something that you just don't want to do because once the worms get out of the can it's going to be very difficult, if not impossible, for you to get them back in the can.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... there is one way to answer written test questions, and maybe another way to handle a situation on the court. I've been around the block a few times and have been to several rodeos ...

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I get what you're saying, and would probably agree with you in most situations, but in just another ref's post specifically regarding the airborne player going out of bounds asking for timeout, the "rule of thumb" (as opposed to the NFHS rules) is that the hustling player grabbing a ball about to go out of bounds, and while airborne yelling loudly for a timeout to avoid an out of bounds violation, is always granted the request, even if the whistle is after the player hits the floor out of bounds (I've seen officials turn away while sounding their whistle, never actually seeing the player land on the floor).

Some things are debatable. This specific one isn't. Pick your battles. This play has been called this way, and only this way, since James Naismith nailed up the peach basket.

It's not in the NFHS Rulebook, it's not in the NFHS Casebook, that's probably not the answer to give on a written test, rather it's covered in Basketball Officiating 101 and only comes with understanding the game, and experience, with a dash of intent and purpose.

To do otherwise would open up a much bigger can of completely different worms, venomous worms, and it's something that you just don't want to do because once the worms get out of the can it's going to be very difficult, if not impossible, for you to get them back in the can.

If these 2 plays happen in the same game (request/try released/whistle/AP arrow vs. airborne/request/land OOB/whistle/grant time-out), how do explain the contradicting rulings to the coach?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

I'm not giving retroactive timeouts. If I blew the whistle before the shot/OOB/act that caused A(the requesting team) to lose possession, THEN, I can grant the timeout, otherwise, I open up a can of worms that I need to explain to the opposing coach (and possibly my supervisor) about why the shot didn't count, or why the other team doesn't get an obvious steal, etc. If I cannot blow the whistle for the timeout request before A loses possession, no timeout.

When you tell a supervisor that you didn't grant a time-out, even though the request came first, b/c your whistle did not blow until after the player landed OOB, you're going to have quite a bit of explaining to do.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You can debate it or not debate it but this is one of those examples of the rule says one thing but the way it is done is another. We had a long discussion about this a while back as it related to the player going out of bounds asking for timeout. He asked for timeout a split second before he lands out of bounds, but he lands before the whistle. Do you give him the timeout or call the violation? A strict reading of the rule says one thing but the way things are says another.

Not quite the same situation. Here the official has accurate knowledge there is player control at the time of the request. The fact the whistle came after the player touched OB is not an issue. Same could be said on a last-second shot situation: Ball is clearly touching hand when the horn sounds. Official whistles and signals no shot just after ball is airborne. Is anyone going to question the official for not being able to sound the whistle while the ball was still touching hand? In most all the other situations here, we have a request from the coach requiring the official to look away from the ball to verify it was the HC. The official then sounds the whistle to grant the time out without having accurate knowledge of the status of the ball.

[ilyazhito]

A is responsible for not losing possession during the time that the timeout is requested and said request is verified as legitimate. Until I have verified that the request is legitimate, and granted it, the timeout has NOT been granted. If I had a legitimate request and a 5-second count in progress, I can grant the timeout and terminate the closely-guarded or inbounds count, even if it has reached 5, because I know that there is player control at the time of request. Not so for a player stepping on a boundary line, or releasing the ball on a shot or pass while the TO request is confirmed.

About airborne players, in NCAA, officials are specifically instructed NOT to allow TO to an airborne player who would land in the backcourt/OOB. If the player would land inbounds or in the frontcourt, the timeout request can be granted. NFHS still allows TO to airborne players, so if an airborne player has player control, I will grant it to a HS player, but not to a college player.

Re: last-second shot, there is another criterion which pre-empts the official's whistle, and that is the horn or red/LED light behind the backboard (occasionally seen on or inside the shot clock). Even if the official had not been able to blow his whistle on a late last-second shot, he can still wave it off because the light, horn, and/or reading of zeroes happened before the shot, all of which evidence could be provided to him by a partner, the official scorer, or timer. This is not so with timeout requests, where there is no external criterion which can pre-empt the official's whistle, and allow the official to retroactively allow (or disallow) the timeout request.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

A is responsible for not losing possession during the time that the timeout is requested and said request is verified as legitimate. Until I have verified that the request is legitimate, and granted it, the timeout has NOT been granted. If I had a legitimate request and a 5-second count in progress, I can grant the timeout and terminate the closely-guarded or inbounds count, even if it has reached 5, because I know that there is player control at the time of request. Not so for a player stepping on a boundary line, or releasing the ball on a shot or pass while the TO request is confirmed.

About airborne players, in NCAA, officials are specifically instructed NOT to allow TO to an airborne player who would land in the backcourt/OOB. If the player would land inbounds or in the frontcourt, the timeout request can be granted. NFHS still allows TO to airborne players, so if an airborne player has player control, I will grant it to a HS player, but not to a college player.

Re: last-second shot, there is another criterion which pre-empts the official's whistle, and that is the horn or red/LED light behind the backboard (occasionally seen on or inside the shot clock). Even if the official had not been able to blow his whistle on a late last-second shot, he can still wave it off because the light, horn, and/or reading of zeroes happened before the shot, all of which evidence could be provided to him by a partner, the official scorer, or timer. This is not so with timeout requests, where there is no external criterion which can pre-empt the official's whistle, and allow the official to retroactively allow (or disallow) the timeout request.

You're ignoring the situation where you said you would not give it time out to an airborne player if your whistle comes after he lands out of bounds. We're talkin high school here. I don't need you telling me college rules because that situation is moot to college.


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