Euro Step - Legal or illegal? Why either way? (Video)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It also doesn't take 2 hands to hold the ball. One under it is holding the ball and when the travel rule begins.

It doesn't, but I would not split hairs here. Again if you have to slow it down to determine that, then you would be a better official than me to catch that during live action.

Peace

[thedewed]

I've got a freeze frame, left hand on the ball, both feet in the air, right foot has left the floor, left foot will be next. no College official, or High School official for that matter worth his salt, would call that a travel

[BigCat]

I have nothing in real time. Slowing it way down...as slow as I can..it looks to me that his left hand goes under the ball (ending the dribble) with right foot on floor at top of key making it pivot. I can’t see it well enough to be sure. In any event, as I said I have nothing in real time. It doesn’t help your game to be the only person on the floor calling travel.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by thedewed

I've got a freeze frame, left hand on the ball, both feet in the air, right foot has left the floor, left foot will be next. no College official, or High School official for that matter worth his salt, would call that a travel

I've got that freeze frame too and several others that don't shot the point of interest. The one before that, however, shows the hand in the same place with the right foot still on the floor.

Yes, it is SO close I am sure I would never call it. But, if you're talking absolutes, it is a travel, just one that can't be confidently judged in real time....thus no call should ever be expected on it.

[thedewed]

I imagine we are seeing the same thing, I'm seeing the left hand on the side of the ball and the right-hand not on it, well some of you others are seeing that left hand under the ball and saying the dribble has thus been stopped. That hand isn't under the ball, it said about two-thirds of the way up the ball. I need to see that right hand also grab the ball before I would say the dribble is stopped. If you don't interpret it that way, you're going to see a whole lot more travels than I do in every single game.

[Raymond]

I have his dribble ended (gather complete) with his left foot down. He doesn't put that foot back down prior to releasing his try.

That's why it is called "judgment".

[sdoebler]

This is not a travel. When you try to nit pick this into a travel you make a long night for your crew.

[SC Official]

Legal.

I read something somewhere about thinking of the end of the dribble as a process (i.e. the gather) rather than a single moment in time. Using this philosophy, it's clear to me that the gather ends with the left foot as the pivot, and it doesn't come back down before the ball is released.

Is it good for the game to split hairs and rule these plays travels? Not for me.

[RefsNCoaches]

I don't have a travel there...left foot appeared to be pivot and it never came back down. Nice video...

From spending time at a pretty high level shooting camp a few years back...That's a good video showing what the Euro is. I try to tell guys all the time, all a "Euro" is...one step at the defender and the next out to the side/away...why is that so hard to comprehend.

These players out here poorly executing illegal jump stop where they get up in the air then land 1 - 2 and get banged for travel, then trying to say "euro step" crack me up. Euro or American, pivot foot allowances don't change!

[#olderthanilook]

Doesn't look his pivot foot (left) returns to the floor before the ball is released for the try in real time.

The slo motion portion of the video leaves off the transition from dribble to gather, so it's difficult to really analyze. But, based on the slo mo that's given...same as real time. Legal movement.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I have his dribble ended (gather complete) with his left foot down. He doesn't put that foot back down prior to releasing his try.

That's why it is called "judgment".

I agree with your description...that is judgement. But, the rules (which are not judgement) do not require the "gather" to be complete. In fact, there is no such thing in the rules. The travel rules apply when the ball is held in even ONE hand...which occurs before the "gather".

That said, I'm never going to call this one because I wouldn't be good enough to see it and be sure of it. But, that doesn't make it not a travel. It just means it is too close to see clearly.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by thedewed

I imagine we are seeing the same thing, I'm seeing the left hand on the side of the ball and the right-hand not on it, well some of you others are seeing that left hand under the ball and saying the dribble has thus been stopped. That hand isn't under the ball, it said about two-thirds of the way up the ball. I need to see that right hand also grab the ball before I would say the dribble is stopped . If you don't interpret it that way, you're going to see a whole lot more travels than I do in every single game.

That isn't the rule. If you reach a point where another dribble would be a carry (one hand under the ball or the ball coming to rest in one hand), the dribble has ended at that point...that is why it would be a carry. There is absolutely no requirement that two hands be on the ball to end the dribble, otherwise, you could catch the ball in one hand and run down the court. Once that has occurred, the travel rules are in effect.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That isn't the rule. If you reach a point where another dribble would be a carry (one hand under the ball or the ball coming to rest in one hand), the dribble has ended at that point...that is why it would be a carry. There is absolutely no requirement that two hands be on the ball to end the dribble, otherwise, you could catch the ball in one hand and run down the court. Once that has occurred, the travel rules are in effect.

There is no requirement for two hands to be on the ball to end the dribble, that is very true. But you are assuming without any evidence that the dribble officially ended with only one hand. There are some things that actually have to take place for the dribble to end with only one hand and that is not clear on the video or clear by the actions of this player, this took place. The dribble does not simply end because the ball is not put back on the floor. The dribble ends when the player grabs the ball in a way that they are either completely under the ball with his hand or have grabbed the ball with one hand which players do not try to do very often. Most of the time players are trying to grab the ball with two hands and not one because that is how they are taught fundamentally.

You try to sell us on this notion every time I post one of these videos. But we have to guess what we see in your situation rather than see what is clear on the video. And we have to slow it down to even come close. Sorry, I see nothing on this video that the ball handler got any control with one hand. The ball could be spinning or not come to rest until both hands come to the ball. And I am not calling that a violation that close or in real time or in slow motion.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There is no requirement for two hands to be on the ball to end the dribble, that is very true. But you are assuming without any evidence that the dribble officially ended with only one hand. There are some things that actually have to take place for the dribble to end with only one hand and that is not clear on the video or clear by the actions of this player, this took place. The dribble does not simply end because the ball is not put back on the floor. The dribble ends when the player grabs the ball in a way that they are either completely under the ball with his hand or have grabbed the ball with one hand which players do not try to do very often. Most of the time players are trying to grab the ball with two hands and not one because that is how they are taught fundamentally.

You try to sell us on this notion every time I post one of these videos. But we have to guess what we see in your situation rather than see what is clear on the video. And we have to slow it down to even come close. Sorry, I see nothing on this video that the ball handler got any control with one hand. The ball could be spinning or not come to rest until both hands come to the ball. And I am not calling that a violation that close or in real time or in slow motion.

Peace

My comments are on what the rules require, not on what you or I see in this video. People should not be making up their own rules.

There is no magic 3rd state of player control between dribbling and holding. When the dribble ends, holding begins...that is how the dribble ends, by rule. Unless you're saying the player lost control and there was a window in which you would not grant a timeout, you have only two choices: dribbling or holding. As such, if it reaches a point where you'd call another dribble a carry, you have, by rule, deemed the player to be holding the ball.

Saying a player hasn't "gathered" is the equivalent of saying a player wasn't set or over-the-back. It is establishing requirements that are contrary to what the rules say.