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Old Mon Oct 13, 2003, 10:47pm
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Worked a freshman/jv type deal down on the south side of town. brand new school, brand new gym. I got there really early cuz i didnt know what traffic was going to be like walked in the gym met the game administrator and noticed shot clocks on the back walls on the main floor (3 floors in one gym- its pretty crazy). Anyway. I didnt think shot clocks were used in High School. ESH! THat could make for a long night.

Games went well though. Had one "fight" no real swings taken but my partner and I ejected the two players. I don't think I want to work these 2 20 min running clock excpet last 2 minutes kind of tournaments. Dead ball mechanics and foul reporting get tossed out of the window which is why I drove this far to work a game, Not only to see some basketball again but to work on slowing down on reporting and fouls and such. I managed to make some progress though. Wasnt a total loss for 15 bucks a game.
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Old Tue Oct 14, 2003, 09:54am
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I agree on the mechanics being tossed on running time

I ran some leagues this summer to work on 3 man mechanics. 2 20 minutes halfs. So, we were always hurrying to keep the ball moving. When I started with clinics a few weeks ago, I had some bad habits I needed to work on.

Rotation on fouls were the first to go.

Its getting better though and I will be ready when the season starts.
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Old Tue Oct 14, 2003, 10:04am
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Re: I agree on the mechanics being tossed on running time

Quote:


... Dead ball mechanics and foul reporting get tossed out of the window...

...So, we were always hurrying to keep the ball moving.

..Rotation on fouls were the first to go...

You guys are making a HUGE mistake. Use these games to work on your mechanics. Let the players wait. Force switches on fouls with your partner.
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Old Tue Oct 14, 2003, 10:06am
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Shot Clocks - New Rule Ever, Don't Think So

Funny you should bring up the shot clock subject. Last night at our state(Maryland)interpretation meeting it was asked as it usually is every year when the boys will be using a shot clock due to the fact that the girls in MD already use one and will this ever be a rule proposed by the Fed. The answer was that this subject was recently brought up in Indianapolis at the meetings. It appears there only a handful of states which currently use a shot clock in some way whether it be for boys or girls, and the majority of the other states who do not currently use it don't see a need for it, so that the most you may see from the fed in the coming years it to make shot clocks a per state adoption rule just as they have done with this new "mercy rule", but probably they will never change it definitively to the entire country.
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Old Tue Oct 14, 2003, 10:36am
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Re: Shot Clocks - New Rule Ever, Don't Think So

Quote:
Originally posted by Ref42
but probably they will never change it definitively to the entire country.
I think it's more of a money issue than a rules issue. With funding the way it is in my state - Oregon - having all high schools buy shot clocks would result in a huge outcry from the teachers who were recently laid off, not to mention parents.
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Old Tue Oct 14, 2003, 10:54am
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Mark your probably right about the cost, especially with the reasons mentioned in your state with regard to the teachers. However here in Maryland we already have it for girls and with regard to money, the individual counties in their infinite wisdom won't pay for 3-person officiating, but they are willing to put the expensive "precision timing system" you see for the D1 games in many of our local high schools. I don't get it.

[Edited by Ref42 on Oct 14th, 2003 at 11:16 AM]
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Old Tue Oct 14, 2003, 11:39am
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I'm with you Ref42. I find it very funny how we use the shot clock for the girls and not for the boys in MD. It's not like the schools don't own the clocks! We also have the same problem with not being able to introduce 3 person mechanics. I guess that's why we aren't administrators!
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Old Tue Oct 14, 2003, 02:58pm
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Most of the private schools in the northern VA area use a shot clock. Not aware of any public schools using it.
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Old Tue Oct 14, 2003, 03:18pm
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Re: Re: I agree on the mechanics being tossed on running time

Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
... Dead ball mechanics and foul reporting get tossed out of the window...

...So, we were always hurrying to keep the ball moving.

..Rotation on fouls were the first to go...

You guys are making a HUGE mistake. Use these games to work on your mechanics. Let the players wait. Force switches on fouls with your partner.
With a running clock, I would rather the refs keep things moving so that the players get as much playing time as possible. Forcing switches may be good for you, but these games are for the players. Anything that adds to the dead ball time with a running clock is bad for the players. You should adapt to these situations to help the game keep moving.
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Old Tue Oct 14, 2003, 03:28pm
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Re: Re: Re: I agree on the mechanics being tossed on running time

Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
... Dead ball mechanics and foul reporting get tossed out of the window...

...So, we were always hurrying to keep the ball moving.

..Rotation on fouls were the first to go...

You guys are making a HUGE mistake. Use these games to work on your mechanics. Let the players wait. Force switches on fouls with your partner.
With a running clock, I would rather the refs keep things moving so that the players get as much playing time as possible. Forcing switches may be good for you, but these games are for the players. Anything that adds to the dead ball time with a running clock is bad for the players. You should adapt to these situations to help the game keep moving.
Uhmmmmm.....no. The game moves at my pace.
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Old Tue Oct 14, 2003, 03:37pm
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Not exactly Dan. Unfortunately, in these games the clock keeps moving regardless of what pace you work. If you waste precious seconds to work at "your pace," you do the players a dis-service. The switch alone could be 5 seconds per non-shooting foul wasted, which might be 2 minutes of playing time in a game. I find that to be relevant.
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Old Tue Oct 14, 2003, 03:50pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Not exactly Dan. Unfortunately, in these games the clock keeps moving regardless of what pace you work. If you waste precious seconds to work at "your pace," you do the players a dis-service. The switch alone could be 5 seconds per non-shooting foul wasted, which might be 2 minutes of playing time in a game. I find that to be relevant.
I'm not rushing the game because you think you might get another minute of playing time in - in the worst case the ball's getting put in play when A has 6 and B has 4. In the best case you have a disorganized mess. (Well actually in the VERY worst case there's someone who innocently wanders into the gym that I might need to impress but won't be because you think you're not getting your full playing time. But that's not your problem, it's mine. And it aint gonna happen.)

If the refs can't or won't control the pace of the game they do not belong on the floor.
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Old Tue Oct 14, 2003, 04:09pm
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Dan, I think that there is a way to balance so that you pick up the pace during dead balls but maintain control over the game. You present this as an either-or situation, I don't believe it is such. I have had a number of high quality refs that clearly pick up their pace to keep things moving when there is a running clock, and I really appreciate the fact that they do so. And there is nothing worse than watching refs who do not seem to be aware that taking their time with a running clock is not making the game better.

By the way, coaches must adapt as well - you need to have subs at the table before the dead ball or as soon as your player gets her fourth foul and before it is reported if you want to get them in and the refs are keeping a quick pace. You have a little more time when the clock is stopped and refs maintain a slightly slower pace.
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Old Tue Oct 14, 2003, 04:12pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Not exactly Dan. Unfortunately, in these games the clock keeps moving regardless of what pace you work. If you waste precious seconds to work at "your pace," you do the players a dis-service. The switch alone could be 5 seconds per non-shooting foul wasted, which might be 2 minutes of playing time in a game. I find that to be relevant.
In practice, refs usually do cut corners (including me) during running clock games.

However, the refs do have a well defined job. There is a clearly defined playing time. If more playing time is the goal, the game should be made longer...not have the refs cut corners.

I work at my pace...which is not slack. If a coach is bugging me near the end of a period in a running clock game about speeding up, I'll take a moment to go over to him to make sure I hear his request clearly.

I once had such a game where there was a foul with 10 or so seconds left in the 1st half. My partner was quickly reporting the foul while the was screaming to get the ball in play. No way I'm putting the ball in play before I know what his call was and if we have the bonus or not. Time ran out before we got it in play. The coach was not pleased. Too bad...that's the way running clock works.
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Old Tue Oct 14, 2003, 04:17pm
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Again, I am not asking that you cut corners to the point that you are making serious errors. And most running clock games have a stoppage rule for the last minute or two of each half to keep time from expiring on a dead ball. The only time that I have seen a continuous running clock throughout the entire game are jamborees, where you have no score kept and three-four courts running on the same clock simultaneously. And those games keep no book and move pretty quick anyway.
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