Travelling/sitting

[Nevadaref]

Check your casebook. 4.44.5 Situation B

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Check your casebook. 4.44.5 Situation B

A few interesting interpretations below:

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control.
A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without
violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once
A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her
back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling
unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises
and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

4.44.5 SITUATION C: A1 is dribbling when he/she: (a) drops to a position with
a knee on the floor and then ends the dribble; or (b) drops one knee to the floor
and then stands again while continuing the dribble. RULING: The action in both
(a) and (b) is legal. However, if A1 touches a knee to the floor while holding the
ball, it would be traveling as A1 has touched the floor with something other than
a hand or foot.

4.44.5 SITUATION D: A1 secures possession of the ball with one knee in contact
with the floor. May A1 assume a standing position without committing a traveling
violation? RULING: It depends on what A1 does. If A1 attempts to stand up
while holding the ball, a traveling violation occurs. However, if A1 starts a dribble
and then rises, no violation has occurred. Also, A1 could pass, try for goal or call
a time-out from that position.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball.

Is this the only time that a player will travel and will not be holding the ball?

From the Misunderstand Rules List: A player must be holding the ball (with one very rare exception) in order to travel.

Just checking. I'm about to post an updated List.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Is this the only time that a player will travel and will not be holding the ball?

From the Misunderstand Rules List: A player must be holding the ball (with one very rare exception) in order to travel.

Just checking. I'm about to post an updated List.

This has been discussed. Holding or touching? I believe, can't recall what consensus was, there is the possibility with shooter losing control and then touching. Also, NFHS case 4.44.2 Sit C. Player throws ball over defender and catches it. Instead of catching (ruled a travel in case book), wouldn't it also be a travel just for touching the ball? If so, that would be an example of someone not holding it. ??

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

From the Misunderstand Rules List: A player must be holding the ball (with one very rare exception) in order to travel.

Originally Posted by bucky

Player throws ball over defender and catches it. Instead of catching (ruled a travel in case book), wouldn't it also be a travel just for touching the ball? If so, that would be an example of someone not holding it?

Just touching instead of catching (holding)? Sounds like a travel and is yet another example of someone traveling without not holding the ball.

I will change my List to read: A player must be holding the ball (with rare exceptions) in order to travel.

Thanks.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Just touching instead of catching (holding)? Sounds like a travel and is yet another example of someone traveling without not holding the ball.

I will change my List to read: A player must be holding the ball (with rare exceptions) in order to travel.

Thanks.

That case has been discussed before. At one time, the case play declared it an illegal dribble. By rule, that is more correct than calling it a travel since traveling does indeed required the ball to be held while moving the feet (still with one exception). There is no exception needed to call it an illegal dribble (for not letting it hit the floor).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That case has been discussed before. At one time, the case play declared it an illegal dribble. By rule, that is more correct than calling it a travel since traveling does indeed required the ball to be held while moving the feet (still with one exception). There is no exception needed to call it an illegal dribble (for not letting it hit the floor).

Thanks.

I will change my List to read: A player must be holding the ball (with rare exception) in order to travel (changing "exception" from plural to singular).

Note: It's nice to know that a few Forum members actually read my very numerous posts. I will admit that sometimes I post things that are self serving, the posts help me understand things, or remind me of things. As a retired teacher, I know that scientific studies substantiate that the physical act of writing (and possibly typing, or keyboarding) boosts learning. That's why I always had my students take notes in class every day, even if the material was in the textbook. This method may not have helped all of them to learn (there are so many different learning styles) but it definitely helped many of them to learn and to achieve success in my classroom.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Just touching instead of catching (holding)? Sounds like a travel and is yet another example of someone traveling without not holding the ball.

I will change my List to read: A player must be holding the ball (with rare exceptions) in order to travel.

Thanks.

I would change the word "holding" to "controlling." Consider walking down the floor while continuously controlling the ball by tipping/tapping it in the air over and over. This controlled tipping/tapping would be traveling imo but yet the ball is not being held. I prefer the word controlled. Just my 2 cents.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bucky

I would change the word "holding" to "controlling." Consider walking down the floor while continuously controlling the ball by tipping/tapping it in the air over and over. This controlled tipping/tapping would be traveling imo but yet the ball is not being held. i prefer the word controlled. Just my 2 cents.

Incorrect. Holding is the correct word. What you described is an illegal dribble.

Rule 4-15 DRIBBLE:

ART. 2 . . . During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s).

Since it isn't allowed to hit the floor, that makes it an illegal dribble.

If "controlling" were what made it a travel, a normal dribble would then be a travel.

[sdoebler]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Is this the only time that a player will travel and will not be holding the ball?

From the Misunderstand Rules List: A player must be holding the ball (with one very rare exception) in order to travel.

Just checking. I'm about to post an updated List.

Possible video example of the rare travel exception.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV8a...LtcFkXyW5DaR7E

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by sdoebler

Possible video example of the rare travel exception.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV8a...LtcFkXyW5DaR7E

Excellent video. Thanks sdoebler.

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control.
A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without
violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once
A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her
back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling
unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises
and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Excellent video. Thanks sdoebler.

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control.
A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without
violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once
A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her
back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling
unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises
and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

Except that video does not, IMO, reflect what is being talked about in the ruling.

I don't see that player putting the ball on the floor and getting up. The ball is already on the floor, the player touches it to stop it from rolling, then gets up. At no time was that player holding the ball...no player control established, which is what would be necessary to have a travel.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Except that video does not reflect what is being talked about in the ruling. I don't see that player putting the ball on the floor and getting up. The ball is already on the floor, the player touches it to stop it from rolling, then gets up. At no time was that player holding the ball...no player control established, which is what would be necessary to have a travel.

Agree. Can the touch to prevent the roll be considered a "controlled" touch?

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Excellent video. Thanks sdoebler.

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control.
A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without
violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once
A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her
back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling
unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises
and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

Nice video but I do not think it fits the case as far as your red-letter words. To me, the video shows control is gained with the knee touching the floor and then the player rising, which is the traveling part.

Back to your myth list and "holding" a ball for traveling. To "hold" usually means grasping, as in using one hand. As far as a basketball, holding generally means with two hands or one hand and at least another body part. (for example one hand on the ball depressing it against a player's waist = player is holding the ball). Do you consider someone palming (and not in the dribbling sense but rather controlling the ball with one hand moving it in any direction) the ball to be "holding" it? I do not consider palming to be holding in the basketball sense which is another reason why I prefer the word "controlling" when discussing traveling. Palming is like a very specific method of holding. Not sure how I feel about describing a supinated hand with the ball on it. Thinking holding but if hand on the bottom is holding, why shouldn't on the top (palming) be holding? And if we have a specific term for describing the palm on top (palming) then why no specific word for the palm being on the bottom? (suppose could say supinating but no one does, everyone says holding) More for me with which to wrestle. Not debating anything, just throwing out my two cents. No one in the world will question your description of traveling in your myth list.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

... control is gained with the knee touching the floor and then the player rising, which is the traveling part.

It's just for a fraction of a second (I had to pause the video), but you're right. Holding (control) plus knee on floor equals a travel.

A player holding the ball: May not touch the floor with a knee or any other part of the body other than hand or foot.