D3 Player Takes Cheap Shot

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

The Lead has better looks at corner shots than Trail. I believe this has been an NCAA Women's mechanic (Lead takes plays below FTL extended) for some time.

I disagree. The Trail is all over this. Sees the entire play and properly calls a Flagrant Foul on the spot. Does not need help to make the call at least at the spot. Men's Mechanics does not extend coverage to the sideline (and properly so IMO). This is in the lead's coverage area. The Lead can help, but he had a lot going on in the lane and if he not watch the lane, he probably is surprised by the crash that took place before for the shot attempt (good no call).

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

The assignor who has instilled this coverage mechanic throughout some of my conferences was an NBA official. At first, I thought it was just a nonsense mechanic coming down from the top. However, when you start implementing this coverage mechanic, those plays become easier to officiate.

I'm not saying Trail didn't have a great look, but bringing these points up from a position standpoint.

I would assume that if you are working college, it did not come from one person, it came from the CCA committee. I work for a guy that is on the Men's CCA Committee and they do very different things than the NBA.

Peace

[NCHSAA]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I disagree. The Trail is all over this. Sees the entire play and properly calls a Flagrant Foul on the spot. Does not need help to make the call at least at the spot. Men's Mechanics does not extend coverage to the sideline (and properly so IMO). This is in the lead's coverage area. The Lead can help, but he had a lot going on in the lane and if he not watch the lane, he probably is surprised by the crash that took place before for the shot attempt (good no call).



I would assume that if you are working college, it did not come from one person, it came from the CCA committee. I work for a guy that is on the Men's CCA Committee and they do very different things than the NBA.

Peace

Corner 3's - Lead must look. Whether he is the only one or not, he must help out. Say Trail didn't have a whistle on this play because he was ball watching, who could have stepped in and saved the day? Lead.

As for your last paragraph, I didn't understand. The assignor for the Big South and Conference Carolina's has instilled this coverage area in his staff - Lead take the corner 3, Trail look in the lane, along with Slot.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

Corner 3's - Lead must look. Whether he is the only one or not, he must help out. Say Trail didn't have a whistle on this play because he was ball watching, who could have stepped in and saved the day? Lead.

I am going to disagree with the "must look" position. He could have opened up to the shooter better, but he also has 8 players in the lane. The play went hard to the paint and then the pass was thrown to the corner. This was not a half-court set play, this was in transition.

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

As for your last paragraph, I didn't understand. The assignor for the Big South and Conference Carolina's has instilled this coverage area in his staff - Lead take the corner 3, Trail look in the lane, along with Slot.

There is as mechanics book that is approved by the NCAA and referenced in the NCAA literature and videos. I cannot speak for what one assignor says to his staff or does not say to his staff. And unless this game was in his conference, then what he might teach or expect might be a little different. But as it relates to what the CCA actually puts out, I am not seeing this play in particular as a play the lead needs to be so focused on the shot in this case. I work for a guy that is actually on the CCA Committee as the D3 Representative. He preaches what is approved in the book to his staff that works everything from D2, D3, NAIA, and JUCO Men's basketball. That is not the primary of the lead. It has never been in CCA Men's Mechanics. Opening up and seeing that play are not the same things IMO.

Peace

[NCHSAA]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am going to disagree with the "must look" position. He could have opened up to the shooter better, but he also has 8 players in the lane. The play went hard to the paint and then the pass was thrown to the corner. This was not a half-court set play, this was in transition.



There is as mechanics book that is approved by the NCAA and referenced in the NCAA literature and videos. I cannot speak for what one assignor says to his staff or does not say to his staff. And unless this game was in his conference, then what he might teach or expect might be a little different. But as it relates to what the CCA actually puts out, I am not seeing this play in particular as a play the lead needs to be so focused on the shot in this case. I work for a guy that is actually on the CCA Committee as the D3 Representative. He preaches what is approved in the book to his staff that works everything from D2, D3, NAIA, and JUCO Men's basketball. That is not the primary of the lead. It has never been in CCA Men's Mechanics. Opening up and seeing that play are not the same things IMO.

Peace

I must admit. I have barely looked at the CCA Manual. I think the different viewpoints on this coverage area illuminates the different officiating tracks (not sure if I am using the right words to describe my point). NCAA officials who work for assignors who only worked in the NCAA themselves are probably not going to learn this coverage area. Whereas, those who work for an assignor who spent time in the NBA, or was at least influenced by the NBA, will probably learn this coverage area regardless of whether it is adopted by the CCA or not.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

I must admit. I have barely looked at the CCA Manual. I think the different viewpoints on this coverage area illuminates the different officiating tracks (not sure if I am using the right words to describe my point). NCAA officials who work for assignors who only worked in the NCAA themselves are probably not going to learn this coverage area. Whereas, those who work for an assignor who spent time in the NBA, or was at least influenced by the NBA, will probably learn this coverage area regardless of whether it is adopted by the CCA or not.

Many of us are fully aware of what the NBA does and does not do. But that has nothing to do with these mechanics that are used at the college level that are advocated or even put in the CCA book. All levels do some of the same things. And this is not about the assignors you work for or don't work for. Assignors do not set the mechanics for the entire level. Again this game was not likely in the league you referenced.

I agree that normally the lead should be more open on this play, but he had reasonable responsibilities in the lane. It is not like he was simply ignoring something, he had things in his primary and the lead has a lot of primary responsibility in the lane. It is even the philosophy to defer to the lead on those plays.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

...The assignor for the Big South and Conference Carolina's has instilled this coverage area in his staff - Lead take the corner 3, Trail look in the lane, along with Slot.

That's NBA and NCAA-W's coverage. I work Pro-Am every summer for 2 NBA officials and it's the coverage that NCAA-M's and HS officials have to adjust to when working for them.

[NCHSAA]

Originally Posted by Raymond

That's NBA and NCAA-W's coverage. I work Pro-Am every summer for 2 NBA officials and it's the coverage that NCAA-M's and HS officials have to adjust to when working for them.

I know. I love it. You would think the NCAA-M would recognize that they are the "odd man out".

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

I know. I love it. You would think the NCAA-M would recognize that they are the "odd man out".

NBA is a different game. In he NBA, once the ball hits that corner a shot is going up. In NCAA and HS the ball may whip around a couple times or will get dumped down to a post player. And I'm pretty good with geometry, and I don't believe the Trail can better see secondary defenders and the RA than the Lead can. I like the NCAA-M's mechanic of the Lead mirroring the ball and opening up to help in the corner but maintaining primary coverage of the post. The NBA also allows a lot of contact in the post that NCAA and NFHS officials are supposed to clean up. Only official who has an angle to see in between the defender and offensive player in the post, especially on initial setup, is the Lead. Additionally, at the NCAA and HS levels, we have infinitely more backcourt pressure, so the Lead is often the only official available to monitor the post for the first 8-10 seconds of a possession. In the NBA, the Trail pretty much can ignore the ball-handler bringing the ball up the court and immediately set their sights on the post area.

[NCHSAA]

Originally Posted by Raymond

NBA is a different game. In he NBA, once the ball hits that corner a shot is going up. In NCAA and HS the ball may whip around a couple times or will get dumped down to a post player. And I'm pretty good with geometry, and I don't believe the Trail can better see secondary defenders and the RA than the Lead can. I like the NCAA-M's mechanic of the Lead mirroring the ball and opening up to help in the corner but maintaining primary coverage of the post. The NBA also allows a lot of contact in the post that NCAA and NFHS officials are supposed to clean up. Only official who has an angle to see in between the defender and offensive player in the post, especially on initial setup, is the Lead. Additionally, at the NCAA and HS levels, we have infinitely more backcourt pressure, so the Lead is often the only official available to monitor the post for the first 8-10 seconds of a possession. In the NBA, the Trail pretty much can ignore the ball-handler bringing the ball up the court and immediately set their sights on the post area.

True. The spread is different. However, a drive with a secondary defender is another scenario. The ball won't be in the corner. I am speaking from a shot in the corner standpoint on Lead getting wide and taking a look at the shot. Same situation with a double team in the corner. Get wide and look.

Last year, I had a game where if the Lead had not opened up and taken a look on a 3 point shot in the corner, we would have missed a foul during the critical point in the game (under 4 minutes). The Trail was looking right at it, but didn't think it was a foul, yet it was clearly a foul.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

True. The spread is different. However, a drive with a secondary defender is another scenario. The ball won't be in the corner. I am speaking from a shot in the corner standpoint on Lead getting wide and taking a look at the shot. Same situation with a double team in the corner. Get wide and look.

Last year, I had a game where if the Lead had not opened up and taken a look on a 3 point shot in the corner, we would have missed a foul during the critical point in the game (under 4 minutes). The Trail was looking right at it, but didn't think it was a foul, yet it was clearly a foul.

Here's another thing about 3-pointers in the corner. The foul is either going to come from directly in front of the shooter or from the side of the court away from the Lead, it's never going to come from the side closer to the sideline.

I worked a college game last week that I'm still watching on Synergy, and I had a foul on a 3-point shooter in the corner where he got hit on the side of his right elbow, which the Lead would have had no way of seeing.

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[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

Last year, I had a game where if the Lead had not opened up and taken a look on a 3 point shot in the corner, we would have missed a foul during the critical point in the game (under 4 minutes). The Trail was looking right at it, but didn't think it was a foul, yet it was clearly a foul.

That's a "problem" with the official, not with the specified coverage. In your play, the official who was the trail *might have been* the L, looked at the play, and decided it wasn't a foul. The official who was the lead *might have been* the trail and now either goes out of his area ("what's he even doing looking there?") or the foul gets missed.