Shot clock violation

[Ed Maeder]

Women's college game. Shot goes up and doesn't hit iron and goes off of backboard. Rebound is controlled by opposing players and whistled for a held ball. The shot clock expires while both players are holding the ball. Team who missed the shot has the alternating possession arrow. What should the outcome be?

[NCHSAA]

Originally Posted by Ed Maeder

Women's college game. Shot goes up and doesn't hit iron and goes off of backboard. Rebound is controlled by opposing players and whistled for a held ball. The shot clock expires while both players are holding the ball. Team who missed the shot has the alternating possession arrow. What should the outcome be?

If you have whistle, then horn, I'm going back to 1 second on the shot clock.

[rwodar]

If the opposing team controlled the ball prior to the held ball we have a new 30


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[crosscountry55]

Simple matter of what happened first in the officials’ judgement. If held ball, I agree put one second back. If horn, SC violation.

OP said NCAAW rule set, but I think this ruling would be the same under any rule set involving a SC.

In NCAA, under what pretext, if any, could this be reviewed at a monitor?


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[JRutledge]

If the opposing team has the ball, you reset the time. I cannot imagine Women's rules are any different than other shot clock rules.

Peace

[ilyazhito]

Because there is a shot clock violation committed by the team entitled to possession, the shot clock violation awards the ball to their opponents. Team B ball with a new shot clock period.

[bob jenkins]

The CCA manual used to have a nice appendix that contained a bunch of plays like this (two or three things happening nearly simultaneously and what happened to possession, game clocks, shot clocks) and how to adjudicate them. It was very handy. I'm sorry they took it out.

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If the opposing team has the ball, you reset the time. I cannot imagine Women's rules are any different than other shot clock rules.

Peace

does joint possession (i.e. held ball)count as possession by the other team and warrant a reset? Or just if the defensive player gained possession just before the attacking player did? (I'm assuming the latter, but curious if I'm wrong.)

[ilyazhito]

It only counts if the possession arrow favors the opposite team to the one that previously had possession. [Hypothetical Situation]If B possessed the ball before the tie-up, and the official judged that B had gained possession, there would be a reset. [\Hypothetical Situation] However, B never gained independent control of the ball before the tie-up occurred in the OP, so A was the last team with team control. Because there was no change of team control, and the shot did not hit the rim, the shot clock does not reset. Because A had possession of the ball after the shot clock was at 0 (and the horn sounded), the result of this play is a shot clock violation and possession to B with a full reset of the shot clock.

[BillyMac]

I have very little experience with shot clocks, Connecticut only uses them in prep school games, and then only at the varsity level.

It seems to me that we get a lot of shot clock questions here on the Forum that may be disproportionate to the number of Forum members that may actually use shot clocks, many Forum members are only high school officials, and many states don't use shot clocks for high school games. And many of the shot clock questions seem to come from otherwise extremely competent officials (as far as I can tell from their Forum postings).

Why so many (relatively speaking) shot clock questions? Are NCAA shot clock rules (and high school shot clock rules where applicable) written in a confusing way? Do these shot clock rules often undergo "minor" changes that may make then confusing from year to year? Are officials not educated properly by their associations? Are shot clock operators not educated properly?

Here in Connecticut I can identify lots of reasons for shot clock questions. I can blame a lack of familiarity for many of our shot clock problems. I haven't had a shot clock in a game since 2016-17, and I never have more than one or two games a season with a shot clock. Shot clock rules are never discussed at our local board meetings, we're given a written shot clock handout every year and that handout is always discussed pregame in our varsity prep school games that require such knowledge (not enough education in my opinion). Of course, I can also blame individual officials (including myself) for not sitting down and memorizing the shot clock rules and fully understanding said rules as well as any other rule of the rule book. And shot clock operators are almost always students, and are often assigned the duty as an afterthought.

But for you guys who work with shot clocks every night, why so many (relatively speaking) questions?

[Raymond]

A majority of the time, shot clock problems are the result of errors committed by the shot clock operator.

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

But for you guys who work with shot clocks every night, why so many (relatively speaking) questions?

I work in Massachusetts, which uses the shot clock at all levels of high school. But I wouldn't say we get a lot more training and insight than you do Billy.

Our "basic" rule book is the same one you use: which is NFHS. So there is zero in there on the shot clock. The MIAA rule on the shot clock, in its entirety is: "The 30-second shot clock will be utilized at all levels in both boys’ and girls’ games."

To further complicate this, the MIAA has two separate instructions: one dated 2006 that is linked from the current MIAA rule book and a different one (prepared by IAABO) dated 2012 and linked from the MIAA web site. I doubt many officials know this or have seen these. The web site also has a 3-page PDF with a bunch of "real world" shot clock situations -- and I suspect even fewer have seen this.

I carry the IAABO instructions in my bag -- but rarely use them in a pre-game. Shot clock situations are brought up at our association meetings -- but usually when an unusual situation arises. I think we can do a better job here. But in reality, most shot clock situations are simple and easy to handle.

Those of us with college experience bring that knowledge and training to our games. But there are always situations that don't fit perfectly in the rule book and we don't have as many resources to fall back upon. But we do discuss them with our board interpreter or with each other.

The NCAA rule book and the CCA mechanics manual are quite clear on the shot clock. But, just like every other rule, there always will be scenarios that are not precisely spelled out in the rule book or manual.

On those rare nights when I have a shot clock issue, I do my best and explain it to the coaches. And that's always been good enough.

[NCHSAA]

Originally Posted by Ed Maeder

Women's college game. Shot goes up and doesn't hit iron and goes off of backboard. Rebound is controlled by opposing players and whistled for a held ball. The shot clock expires while both players are holding the ball. Team who missed the shot has the alternating possession arrow. What should the outcome be?

I should clarify my answer above. I read the post literally - "controlled by opposing players" - as getting their hands on the ball at approximately the same time, to where you can't distinguish one before the other. In this case, I am putting the shot clock back at 1.

If you deem the other team gained possession before the held ball, then you would have a reset of the shot clock and go to the arrow.

What you can't have is a shot-clock violation, IMO.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

Those of us with college experience bring that knowledge and training to our games.

Every time I get prep school varsity assignment, I hope and pray that my partner is an NCAA official.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

Our "basic" rule book is the same one you use: which is NFHS. So there is zero in there on the shot clock. The MIAA rule on the shot clock, in its entirety is: "The 30-second shot clock will be utilized at all levels in both boys’ and girls’ games."

Here's what we get:

http://www.iaabo6.org/2017/2017PrepRules.pdf