D3 Player Takes Cheap Shot

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

The thing I'm questioning about Jeff's posts is this -- he seemed to say that calling it a live ball foul and being incorrect is somehow better than calling it a dead ball flagrant technical and being wrong. My point is.....wrong is wrong. What's the difference?

That is not exactly what I said. You put a lot of stuff into my comments.

Let me make this clear. Lower level college basketball often does not have a monitor. Lower level college does not have rules different than D1, but there is an expectation to call the exact same things as they do at that level. When you do not call things like the D1, coaches can and will go nuts, even when you do not have a monitor. So if you rule something like a Flagrant Technical and it is not "there" they might make an issue out of that. College coaches can be pettier than high school coaches. And at least for me, college coaches do not know you as well as high school coaches, you cannot just tell them anything.

Originally Posted by Rich

As someone who worked enough "low level college games" over the years to tell me I 100% completely hated everything about it, let me just say that you folks that do those games are more than welcome to them.

It is better than working many college football games and being there all day for less pay in some cases. At least I am at a game less than a couple of hours and it is warm inside. So to each his own.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I love my low-level college games. I get paid at least 3 times as much as my HS games and the majority of those games are within a 90 minute drive for me.

We have some longer drives than that, but I would rather go 3 hours to be paid way more than a high school game I get paid only $70 for. And one conference I work gives travel pay too.

Peace

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I don't know much about NCAA rules but it certainly fits the definition of an NFHS fight: Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live. Fighting includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as: An attempt to strike, punch or kick by using a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made.

Good points and I think maybe someone mentioned fighting early in this discussion.

[NCHSAA]

I didn't scan through the last 6 pages to see if anyone mentioned the Lead's position, but this is a perfect example why you must work hard to get "outside-in" position. The Lead is closed off and tunnel visioned. I have an assignor who wouldn't raise h*** over whether its a F2 Personal or Technical Foul, but he would target the Lead on his position.

Especially, since this video shows the Trail watching the flight of the ball, it's a perfect example to show why Lead must open up on those corner shots! Thank God Trail had enough courage to trust his gut because Lead was no help!

[ilyazhito]

Lead was watching what he was supposed to, the matchups in his PCA on his side of the post. Maybe he might have seen the offender, White 23 dashing to the corner, and then open up while keeping his PCA matchups in view, but Trail officiated the play correctly. Successful 3, Flagrant 2, 2 free throws and possession to A.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

I didn't scan through the last 6 pages to see if anyone mentioned the Lead's position, but this is a perfect example why you must work hard to get "outside-in" position. The Lead is closed off and tunnel visioned. I have an assignor who wouldn't raise h*** over whether its a F2 Personal or Technical Foul, but he would target the Lead on his position.

Especially, since this video shows the Trail watching the flight of the ball, it's a perfect example to show why Lead must open up on those corner shots! Thank God Trail had enough courage to trust his gut because Lead was no help!

I think we need to see the actual coach's video here. If you saw the play broken down, the Lead has like 8 players in the lane. He cannot concentrate that hard on 2 players which the Trail should be doing nothing but looking at that shot attempt. There is even a crash in the lane on a pass that led to the shot attempt.

Well here is the play for better understanding.

[Pantherdreams]

Not to derail thread. This is bad and I think it was handled as well as an unexpected play like this can be by the crew.

The kid deserves whatever punishment he gets.

On an quasi related note: I'm seeing all this stuff out there about dirtiest play ever, worst flagrant foul, assault etc. Not to be the get off my lawn old guy but is this a case of millenial social media and immediacy bias pretending the Jordan rules weren't a thing, that Karl Malone didn't give Isiah Thomas 40 stitches minutes in the 1st quarter of a regular season game, that anything that didn't happen after 2000 didn't really happen???

Laetner just had a documentary made about him stomping on a guy for goodness sake.

Is this bad? Heck yeah. Could we not act like throughout the history of basketball a guy hitting a shooter with a dirty elbow is the worst thing that has ever happened.

[so cal lurker]

Of course, we live in the era of hyperbole. But this is up there. And it isn't just a "dirty elbow." This isn't a heat of moment thing. This is a player coming out after the play is over, looking at the (wrong) ref to see he isn't looking, and throwing a pre-meditated elbow into a face. There was no instigation (in the immediate term) from the victim. Pre-meditated, brutal fouls that aren't connected to the game (the Jordan rules were about fouling the guy with the ball) are awfully rare.

[NCHSAA]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Lead was watching what he was supposed to, the matchups in his PCA on his side of the post. Maybe he might have seen the offender, White 23 dashing to the corner, and then open up while keeping his PCA matchups in view, but Trail officiated the play correctly. Successful 3, Flagrant 2, 2 free throws and possession to A.

The Lead has better looks at corner shots than Trail. I believe this has been an NCAA Women's mechanic (Lead takes plays below FTL extended) for some time. The assignor who has instilled this coverage mechanic throughout some of my conferences was an NBA official. At first, I thought it was just a nonsense mechanic coming down from the top. However, when you start implementing this coverage mechanic, those plays become easier to officiate.

I'm not saying Trail didn't have a great look, but bringing these points up from a position standpoint.

[Pantherdreams]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

Pre-meditated, brutal fouls that aren't connected to the game (the Jordan rules were about fouling the guy with the ball) are awfully rare.

Jordan rules might have been about fouling the guy with the ball but it wasn't about making a basketball play. Malone and McHale might have clotheslined guys or throw elbows at guys going up for a layup but I don't think that just because it was in the middle of a basketball play as opposed to when one has just ended changes the brutality or the intent.

All of those as premeditated and brutal (by todays standards). In 2013 Beverly ended Westbrook's season by taking out his knees as a timeout was being called. Was he making a basketball play? More so than this guy but not much and the purpose was the same. Physical intimidation and attempt to injure.

Sorry. Go back to your regular useful discussion on this topic.

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well here is the play for better understanding.

Thanks for posting that video... I never knew this resource was available.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

The Lead has better looks at corner shots than Trail. I believe this has been an NCAA Women's mechanic (Lead takes plays below FTL extended) for some time.

I disagree. The Trail is all over this. Sees the entire play and properly calls a Flagrant Foul on the spot. Does not need help to make the call at least at the spot. Men's Mechanics does not extend coverage to the sideline (and properly so IMO). This is in the lead's coverage area. The Lead can help, but he had a lot going on in the lane and if he not watch the lane, he probably is surprised by the crash that took place before for the shot attempt (good no call).

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

The assignor who has instilled this coverage mechanic throughout some of my conferences was an NBA official. At first, I thought it was just a nonsense mechanic coming down from the top. However, when you start implementing this coverage mechanic, those plays become easier to officiate.

I'm not saying Trail didn't have a great look, but bringing these points up from a position standpoint.

I would assume that if you are working college, it did not come from one person, it came from the CCA committee. I work for a guy that is on the Men's CCA Committee and they do very different things than the NBA.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Thanks for posting that video... I never knew this resource was available.

He has some really awesome stuff. I used his videos often for presentations and meetings.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Lead was watching what he was supposed to, the matchups in his PCA on his side of the post. Maybe he might have seen the offender, White 23 dashing to the corner, and then open up while keeping his PCA matchups in view, but Trail officiated the play correctly. Successful 3, Flagrant 2, 2 free throws and possession to A.

In NCAA-Men's mechanics, the Lead is supposed to open up to 3-point shooters in the corner, which means getting wide when the ball goes to the corner. His initial positioning was not good, IMO. He can still see the post while staying wide and stealing a peek at the shooter. By the time the contact occurred he was correctly concentrating on the rebounding action in the paint though.

I've been doing it for years in my low-level (and occasionally higher level) college games.

[NCHSAA]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I disagree. The Trail is all over this. Sees the entire play and properly calls a Flagrant Foul on the spot. Does not need help to make the call at least at the spot. Men's Mechanics does not extend coverage to the sideline (and properly so IMO). This is in the lead's coverage area. The Lead can help, but he had a lot going on in the lane and if he not watch the lane, he probably is surprised by the crash that took place before for the shot attempt (good no call).



I would assume that if you are working college, it did not come from one person, it came from the CCA committee. I work for a guy that is on the Men's CCA Committee and they do very different things than the NBA.

Peace

Corner 3's - Lead must look. Whether he is the only one or not, he must help out. Say Trail didn't have a whistle on this play because he was ball watching, who could have stepped in and saved the day? Lead.

As for your last paragraph, I didn't understand. The assignor for the Big South and Conference Carolina's has instilled this coverage area in his staff - Lead take the corner 3, Trail look in the lane, along with Slot.