D3 Player Takes Cheap Shot

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by LRZ

Raymond, solely out of curiosity, what was your supervisor's take on the play?

He wants the play ruled a "fight". A fight by definition is a Flagrant 2 Technical.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

He wants the play ruled a "fight". A fight by definition is a Flagrant 2 Technical.

I don't know much about NCAA rules but it certainly fits the definition of an NFHS fight: Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live. Fighting includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as: An attempt to strike, punch or kick by using a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I don't know much about NCAA rules but it certainly fits the definition of an NFHS fight: Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live. Fighting includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as: An attempt to strike, punch or kick by using a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made.

Good points and I think maybe someone mentioned fighting early in this discussion.

[NCHSAA]

I didn't scan through the last 6 pages to see if anyone mentioned the Lead's position, but this is a perfect example why you must work hard to get "outside-in" position. The Lead is closed off and tunnel visioned. I have an assignor who wouldn't raise h*** over whether its a F2 Personal or Technical Foul, but he would target the Lead on his position.

Especially, since this video shows the Trail watching the flight of the ball, it's a perfect example to show why Lead must open up on those corner shots! Thank God Trail had enough courage to trust his gut because Lead was no help!

[ilyazhito]

Lead was watching what he was supposed to, the matchups in his PCA on his side of the post. Maybe he might have seen the offender, White 23 dashing to the corner, and then open up while keeping his PCA matchups in view, but Trail officiated the play correctly. Successful 3, Flagrant 2, 2 free throws and possession to A.

[NCHSAA]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Lead was watching what he was supposed to, the matchups in his PCA on his side of the post. Maybe he might have seen the offender, White 23 dashing to the corner, and then open up while keeping his PCA matchups in view, but Trail officiated the play correctly. Successful 3, Flagrant 2, 2 free throws and possession to A.

The Lead has better looks at corner shots than Trail. I believe this has been an NCAA Women's mechanic (Lead takes plays below FTL extended) for some time. The assignor who has instilled this coverage mechanic throughout some of my conferences was an NBA official. At first, I thought it was just a nonsense mechanic coming down from the top. However, when you start implementing this coverage mechanic, those plays become easier to officiate.

I'm not saying Trail didn't have a great look, but bringing these points up from a position standpoint.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

The Lead has better looks at corner shots than Trail. I believe this has been an NCAA Women's mechanic (Lead takes plays below FTL extended) for some time.

I disagree. The Trail is all over this. Sees the entire play and properly calls a Flagrant Foul on the spot. Does not need help to make the call at least at the spot. Men's Mechanics does not extend coverage to the sideline (and properly so IMO). This is in the lead's coverage area. The Lead can help, but he had a lot going on in the lane and if he not watch the lane, he probably is surprised by the crash that took place before for the shot attempt (good no call).

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

The assignor who has instilled this coverage mechanic throughout some of my conferences was an NBA official. At first, I thought it was just a nonsense mechanic coming down from the top. However, when you start implementing this coverage mechanic, those plays become easier to officiate.

I'm not saying Trail didn't have a great look, but bringing these points up from a position standpoint.

I would assume that if you are working college, it did not come from one person, it came from the CCA committee. I work for a guy that is on the Men's CCA Committee and they do very different things than the NBA.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Lead was watching what he was supposed to, the matchups in his PCA on his side of the post. Maybe he might have seen the offender, White 23 dashing to the corner, and then open up while keeping his PCA matchups in view, but Trail officiated the play correctly. Successful 3, Flagrant 2, 2 free throws and possession to A.

In NCAA-Men's mechanics, the Lead is supposed to open up to 3-point shooters in the corner, which means getting wide when the ball goes to the corner. His initial positioning was not good, IMO. He can still see the post while staying wide and stealing a peek at the shooter. By the time the contact occurred he was correctly concentrating on the rebounding action in the paint though.

I've been doing it for years in my low-level (and occasionally higher level) college games.

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by Raymond

In NCAA-Men's mechanics, the Lead is supposed to open up to 3-point shooters in the corner, which means getting wide when the ball goes to the corner. His initial positioning was not good, IMO. He can still see the post while staying wide and stealing a peek at the shooter. By the time the contact occurred he was correctly concentrating on the rebounding action in the paint though.

I've been doing it for years in my low-level (and occasionally higher level) college games.

How does that work with the "up-down-rebound" coverage pattern that officials are instructed to use on shots? If Trail is responsible for the shot (the "up" part), then it stands to reason that he is also responsible for the shooter coming down safely, any contact against him, and rebounding activity. Thus, any look that the lead might have on this play is secondary.

What would you have done as the Lead to officiate both the pass-crash play a few seconds before the 3-point shot, and the F2 foul against the 3-point shooter?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Lead was watching what he was supposed to, the matchups in his PCA on his side of the post. Maybe he might have seen the offender, White 23 dashing to the corner, and then open up while keeping his PCA matchups in view, but Trail officiated the play correctly. Successful 3, Flagrant 2, 2 free throws and possession to A.

Actually, the lead was NOT in proper position. The L should mirror the ball and should have moved out as far as the 3-point arc. Even if the L is focused on the post area, being wide in a mirroring position puts this play in his peripheral vision. Where he was, he had no chance to pick it up....that is one of the reasons why we mirror the ball.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

I didn't scan through the last 6 pages to see if anyone mentioned the Lead's position, but this is a perfect example why you must work hard to get "outside-in" position. The Lead is closed off and tunnel visioned. I have an assignor who wouldn't raise h*** over whether its a F2 Personal or Technical Foul, but he would target the Lead on his position.

Especially, since this video shows the Trail watching the flight of the ball, it's a perfect example to show why Lead must open up on those corner shots! Thank God Trail had enough courage to trust his gut because Lead was no help!

I think we need to see the actual coach's video here. If you saw the play broken down, the Lead has like 8 players in the lane. He cannot concentrate that hard on 2 players which the Trail should be doing nothing but looking at that shot attempt. There is even a crash in the lane on a pass that led to the shot attempt.

Well here is the play for better understanding.

[Pantherdreams]

Not to derail thread. This is bad and I think it was handled as well as an unexpected play like this can be by the crew.

The kid deserves whatever punishment he gets.

On an quasi related note: I'm seeing all this stuff out there about dirtiest play ever, worst flagrant foul, assault etc. Not to be the get off my lawn old guy but is this a case of millenial social media and immediacy bias pretending the Jordan rules weren't a thing, that Karl Malone didn't give Isiah Thomas 40 stitches minutes in the 1st quarter of a regular season game, that anything that didn't happen after 2000 didn't really happen???

Laetner just had a documentary made about him stomping on a guy for goodness sake.

Is this bad? Heck yeah. Could we not act like throughout the history of basketball a guy hitting a shooter with a dirty elbow is the worst thing that has ever happened.

[so cal lurker]

Of course, we live in the era of hyperbole. But this is up there. And it isn't just a "dirty elbow." This isn't a heat of moment thing. This is a player coming out after the play is over, looking at the (wrong) ref to see he isn't looking, and throwing a pre-meditated elbow into a face. There was no instigation (in the immediate term) from the victim. Pre-meditated, brutal fouls that aren't connected to the game (the Jordan rules were about fouling the guy with the ball) are awfully rare.

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well here is the play for better understanding.

Thanks for posting that video... I never knew this resource was available.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Thanks for posting that video... I never knew this resource was available.

He has some really awesome stuff. I used his videos often for presentations and meetings.

Peace