D3 Player Takes Cheap Shot

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

Corner 3's - Lead must look. Whether he is the only one or not, he must help out. Say Trail didn't have a whistle on this play because he was ball watching, who could have stepped in and saved the day? Lead.

I am going to disagree with the "must look" position. He could have opened up to the shooter better, but he also has 8 players in the lane. The play went hard to the paint and then the pass was thrown to the corner. This was not a half-court set play, this was in transition.

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

As for your last paragraph, I didn't understand. The assignor for the Big South and Conference Carolina's has instilled this coverage area in his staff - Lead take the corner 3, Trail look in the lane, along with Slot.

There is as mechanics book that is approved by the NCAA and referenced in the NCAA literature and videos. I cannot speak for what one assignor says to his staff or does not say to his staff. And unless this game was in his conference, then what he might teach or expect might be a little different. But as it relates to what the CCA actually puts out, I am not seeing this play in particular as a play the lead needs to be so focused on the shot in this case. I work for a guy that is actually on the CCA Committee as the D3 Representative. He preaches what is approved in the book to his staff that works everything from D2, D3, NAIA, and JUCO Men's basketball. That is not the primary of the lead. It has never been in CCA Men's Mechanics. Opening up and seeing that play are not the same things IMO.

Peace

[NCHSAA]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am going to disagree with the "must look" position. He could have opened up to the shooter better, but he also has 8 players in the lane. The play went hard to the paint and then the pass was thrown to the corner. This was not a half-court set play, this was in transition.



There is as mechanics book that is approved by the NCAA and referenced in the NCAA literature and videos. I cannot speak for what one assignor says to his staff or does not say to his staff. And unless this game was in his conference, then what he might teach or expect might be a little different. But as it relates to what the CCA actually puts out, I am not seeing this play in particular as a play the lead needs to be so focused on the shot in this case. I work for a guy that is actually on the CCA Committee as the D3 Representative. He preaches what is approved in the book to his staff that works everything from D2, D3, NAIA, and JUCO Men's basketball. That is not the primary of the lead. It has never been in CCA Men's Mechanics. Opening up and seeing that play are not the same things IMO.

Peace

I must admit. I have barely looked at the CCA Manual. I think the different viewpoints on this coverage area illuminates the different officiating tracks (not sure if I am using the right words to describe my point). NCAA officials who work for assignors who only worked in the NCAA themselves are probably not going to learn this coverage area. Whereas, those who work for an assignor who spent time in the NBA, or was at least influenced by the NBA, will probably learn this coverage area regardless of whether it is adopted by the CCA or not.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Lead was watching what he was supposed to, the matchups in his PCA on his side of the post. Maybe he might have seen the offender, White 23 dashing to the corner, and then open up while keeping his PCA matchups in view, but Trail officiated the play correctly. Successful 3, Flagrant 2, 2 free throws and possession to A.

Actually, the lead was NOT in proper position. The L should mirror the ball and should have moved out as far as the 3-point arc. Even if the L is focused on the post area, being wide in a mirroring position puts this play in his peripheral vision. Where he was, he had no chance to pick it up....that is one of the reasons why we mirror the ball.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

I must admit. I have barely looked at the CCA Manual. I think the different viewpoints on this coverage area illuminates the different officiating tracks (not sure if I am using the right words to describe my point). NCAA officials who work for assignors who only worked in the NCAA themselves are probably not going to learn this coverage area. Whereas, those who work for an assignor who spent time in the NBA, or was at least influenced by the NBA, will probably learn this coverage area regardless of whether it is adopted by the CCA or not.

Many of us are fully aware of what the NBA does and does not do. But that has nothing to do with these mechanics that are used at the college level that are advocated or even put in the CCA book. All levels do some of the same things. And this is not about the assignors you work for or don't work for. Assignors do not set the mechanics for the entire level. Again this game was not likely in the league you referenced.

I agree that normally the lead should be more open on this play, but he had reasonable responsibilities in the lane. It is not like he was simply ignoring something, he had things in his primary and the lead has a lot of primary responsibility in the lane. It is even the philosophy to defer to the lead on those plays.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

...The assignor for the Big South and Conference Carolina's has instilled this coverage area in his staff - Lead take the corner 3, Trail look in the lane, along with Slot.

That's NBA and NCAA-W's coverage. I work Pro-Am every summer for 2 NBA officials and it's the coverage that NCAA-M's and HS officials have to adjust to when working for them.

[NCHSAA]

Originally Posted by Raymond

That's NBA and NCAA-W's coverage. I work Pro-Am every summer for 2 NBA officials and it's the coverage that NCAA-M's and HS officials have to adjust to when working for them.

I know. I love it. You would think the NCAA-M would recognize that they are the "odd man out".

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

I know. I love it. You would think the NCAA-M would recognize that they are the "odd man out".

NBA is a different game. In he NBA, once the ball hits that corner a shot is going up. In NCAA and HS the ball may whip around a couple times or will get dumped down to a post player. And I'm pretty good with geometry, and I don't believe the Trail can better see secondary defenders and the RA than the Lead can. I like the NCAA-M's mechanic of the Lead mirroring the ball and opening up to help in the corner but maintaining primary coverage of the post. The NBA also allows a lot of contact in the post that NCAA and NFHS officials are supposed to clean up. Only official who has an angle to see in between the defender and offensive player in the post, especially on initial setup, is the Lead. Additionally, at the NCAA and HS levels, we have infinitely more backcourt pressure, so the Lead is often the only official available to monitor the post for the first 8-10 seconds of a possession. In the NBA, the Trail pretty much can ignore the ball-handler bringing the ball up the court and immediately set their sights on the post area.

[NCHSAA]

Originally Posted by Raymond

NBA is a different game. In he NBA, once the ball hits that corner a shot is going up. In NCAA and HS the ball may whip around a couple times or will get dumped down to a post player. And I'm pretty good with geometry, and I don't believe the Trail can better see secondary defenders and the RA than the Lead can. I like the NCAA-M's mechanic of the Lead mirroring the ball and opening up to help in the corner but maintaining primary coverage of the post. The NBA also allows a lot of contact in the post that NCAA and NFHS officials are supposed to clean up. Only official who has an angle to see in between the defender and offensive player in the post, especially on initial setup, is the Lead. Additionally, at the NCAA and HS levels, we have infinitely more backcourt pressure, so the Lead is often the only official available to monitor the post for the first 8-10 seconds of a possession. In the NBA, the Trail pretty much can ignore the ball-handler bringing the ball up the court and immediately set their sights on the post area.

True. The spread is different. However, a drive with a secondary defender is another scenario. The ball won't be in the corner. I am speaking from a shot in the corner standpoint on Lead getting wide and taking a look at the shot. Same situation with a double team in the corner. Get wide and look.

Last year, I had a game where if the Lead had not opened up and taken a look on a 3 point shot in the corner, we would have missed a foul during the critical point in the game (under 4 minutes). The Trail was looking right at it, but didn't think it was a foul, yet it was clearly a foul.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

True. The spread is different. However, a drive with a secondary defender is another scenario. The ball won't be in the corner. I am speaking from a shot in the corner standpoint on Lead getting wide and taking a look at the shot. Same situation with a double team in the corner. Get wide and look.

Last year, I had a game where if the Lead had not opened up and taken a look on a 3 point shot in the corner, we would have missed a foul during the critical point in the game (under 4 minutes). The Trail was looking right at it, but didn't think it was a foul, yet it was clearly a foul.

Here's another thing about 3-pointers in the corner. The foul is either going to come from directly in front of the shooter or from the side of the court away from the Lead, it's never going to come from the side closer to the sideline.

I worked a college game last week that I'm still watching on Synergy, and I had a foul on a 3-point shooter in the corner where he got hit on the side of his right elbow, which the Lead would have had no way of seeing.

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[NCHSAA]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Here's another thing about 3-pointers in the corner. The foul is either going to come from directly in front of the shooter or from the side of the court away from the Lead, it's never going to come from the side closer to the sideline.

I worked a college game last week that I'm still watching on Synergy, and I had a foul on a 3-point shooter in the corner where he got hit on the side of his right elbow, which the Lead would have had no way of seeing.

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Was the contact on the front of the elbow with the defensive player coming toward the offensive player or on the right side of the elbow with the defensive player going from Trail to Lead?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

Was the contact on the front of the elbow with the defensive player coming toward the offensive player or on the right side of the elbow with the defensive player going from Trail to Lead?

Right-handed shooter, left side next to end line. Defender was in front, but swiped with his left hand (away from end line) and hit the outside of the shooter's right elbow as he was elevating.

(BTW, this is the type of discussion new officials trying to get into college ball should be focusing on, not whether an NBA player can dangle from the rim after a time-out)

[NCHSAA]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Right-handed shooter, left side next to end line. Defender was in front, but swiped with his left hand (away from end line) and hit the outside of the shooter's right elbow as he was elevating.

(BTW, this is the type of discussion new officials trying to get into college ball should be focusing on, not whether an NBA player can dangle from the rim after a time-out)

Did the ball get anywhere near the rim and/or did the shooter's motion have a weird reaction? I agree that it is a tough angle, if the contact is on the outside of the shooter's outside arm toward Trail. However, usually you can infer based on the trajectory of the shot and/or his body's reaction, but Trail would be the only one to actually see the contact, unless Lead gets lucky on the look through.

Amen! Discussions like these build foundations.

[Rich]

Likewise, the shooter with the shooting arm on the baseline side - the lead is probably getting the best, if not the only look.


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[Raymond]

After watching the whole video, the Lead did take a peek at the shooter before turning his attention back to the paint.

[NCHSAA]

Originally Posted by Raymond

After watching the whole video, the Lead did take a peak at the shooter before turning his attention back to the paint.

I wish it was a look instead of a peak...