D3 Player Takes Cheap Shot

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by LRZ

OK, as officials, we are supposed to have thick skin, but let's keep the argument civil and focused on the issues. There is enough animosity in the world.

There is no animosity.

Rut brought red herrings into the discussion, then when asked to defend his points he couldn't and doubled down.

Writing a novel doesn't make you smart.

[crosscountry55]

I don’t work college basketball. But based on my desire for humility and some sage advice offered on this forum last year, if I ever do work college, I will refuse to offer that fact when offering any opinions about officiating. To do otherwise is fruitless showboating.

It is one thing to clarify the rules set in question. That’s perfectly ok. But “I’m a college...” and “My college assignor says...”. are not helpful additions to any officiating discussion.

My 2¢.


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[SC Official]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

I don’t work college basketball. But based on my desire for humility and some sage advice offered on this forum last year, if I ever do work college, I will refuse to offer that fact when offering any opinions about officiating. To do otherwise is fruitless showboating.

It is one thing to clarify the rules set in question. That’s perfectly ok. But “I’m a college...” and “My college assignor says...”. are not helpful additions to any officiating discussion.

My 2¢.

Working college doesn't tell me much about an official, especially lower-level college. There are many "college officials" that don't qualify themselves by stating what levels/how many games they work, and there are many that are hired for reasons other than pure ability. I know more than one NAIA/JUCO/D3 official that I wouldn't want to work a high-level HS boys game with.

Mentioning that you're a "college official" when irrelevant is nothing more than big-timing.

[UNIgiantslayers]

It feels like we're having two separate debates here.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SC Official

JRut then went on a tangent and said that the ball wasn't even close to being dead and basically implied that it would be the end of the world if you ruled an F2TF on this instead of an F2PF. Said coaches would complain and you have to "beat the tape" which no one disputed, but not really relevant to the discussion. I responded that many officials don't even understand the difference between the two fouls, what makes you think the average coach would know? As long as the player is ejected and the offended team gets two FTs and the ball, no one will lose sleep. He implied that it is worse to rule the ball dead when it is actually live than vice-versa, then when asked to defend his point he didn't. Then he implied I didn't care about "beating the tape" and spilled off his resume, again not even addressing the irrelevance/illogicality of his points.

I said the ball was not clearly dead and probably would only be determined by looking a the replay (which they did not have) or clearly seeing this live. And yes you have to beat the tape if you are calling something based off of something you did not see live. Just like "hook and hold" plays, you have to be right.

I also disagree with the premise of what a coach might not say. That is you projecting to know what coaches will or will not do at this or all levels.

And if you saw the coach's tape that showed a situation right before this foul called on the play, it is possible a coach would care that you did not take care of something before this happened. There was a situation with these two players right before the incident that is posted. The coach might have felt that the officials handled the entire situation poorly and this is why this happened. There might be more plays where things were not handled correctly by the officials in the coach's opinion. It would not be the first time that

I also did not say a thing about my resume'. I did not say what level I worked or what level I did not work. I do work college ball, but that is very general and very not specific. Even that matters little if you live in certain areas because not everyone can work all levels of college unless they want to go 5 hours one way for a game. I did give a story of the level of the game I referenced I worked yesterday illustrating how petty coaches can be even when you are doing the right thing. I said you keep talking about a level you have said you did not work in the past. That means that you may not be aware of what is asked of officials at this level. We are not talking about high school basketball where the details might not matter, because the basketball coach is likely the math teacher too. A college coach is living for every moment in the game because he or she might not live in that community next year if they do not win or recruit the right kids. This kid on the team could be a reflection of the coach too. So yes, they might care if some guy does not enforce the rules properly even if it is close. Honestly, I was not speaking to you when I said this, I was speaking to those that want to work these games and think "No one will care" and they will quickly show you how much they care or it might matter to you personally.

Heck, tonight is our season start, better not say that it is my 23rd year of basketball officiating and working a tournament. God Forbid that people talk about those things when talking about what happens with us personally because people like you will think that is talking about your resume'.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

I don’t work college basketball. But based on my desire for humility and some sage advice offered on this forum last year, if I ever do work college, I will refuse to offer that fact when offering any opinions about officiating. To do otherwise is fruitless showboating.

It is one thing to clarify the rules set in question. That’s perfectly ok. But “I’m a college...” and “My college assignor says...”. are not helpful additions to any officiating discussion.

My 2¢.

Then never go to anyone's camp. Never listen to them about anything they tell you to do at that camp. Never listen to a supervisor that tells you what they will do if the coach calls you. It will never help you or anyone because every single camp I have ever attended at any level, the people are telling you what they do or what has happened to them in their career or their positions. And they definitely are going to say things when the game is at the very level they are directly involved with. Heck, not sure why people on this site if they only want to talk about the level they know.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

...“My college assignor says...”.
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Is often relevant when discussing rules/plays from college games. I do have a college supervisor who sent out an email about this play and told us exactly how it wants it handled and what he wants included in the game report. He is also a supervisor who will tell us that he doesn't care what our philosophies and thoughts are once he chimes in on a subject.

[Rich]

I said it was a flagrant technical based on one viewing of the film.

In retrospect, after watching the replay, I said I was wrong -- that the ball had not completely cleared the net and it was still a live ball.

But had the ball completely checked the net, it would've been a flagrant technical and calling it an F2 would've been incorrect.

The thing I'm questioning about Jeff's posts is this -- he seemed to say that calling it a live ball foul and being incorrect is somehow better than calling it a dead ball flagrant technical and being wrong. My point is.....wrong is wrong. What's the difference?

As someone who worked enough "low level college games" over the years to tell me I 100% completely hated everything about it, let me just say that you folks that do those games are more than welcome to them.

[Raymond]

I love my low-level college games. I get paid at least 3 times as much as my HS games and the majority of those games are within a 90 minute drive for me.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I love my low-level college games. I get paid at least 3 times as much as my HS games and the majority of those games are within a 90 minute drive for me.

Certainly depends a lot on where you live.

When I was working those games the closest school was an hour away, the rest were at least two. The longest trip was over five hours.

Leaving work early to work bad basketball, dress in a storage closet in the middle of BFE, and ref in front of empty crowds wasn't worth it.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I love my low-level college games. I get paid at least 3 times as much as my HS games and the majority of those games are within a 90 minute drive for me.

Ah, the benefit of east coast campus density.

Things are not quite as cost effective in Wisconsin and Kansas. Similar pay but a lot more mileage and late night drives.

I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know. I just don’t want aspiring officials north and west of the Ohio River to get a false sense of JUCO and D3 profitability.

Then again those $55 high school games in Wisconsin make a 300 mile round trip for a D3 game in January look not so bad...


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[LRZ]

Raymond, solely out of curiosity, what was your supervisor's take on the play?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by LRZ

Raymond, solely out of curiosity, what was your supervisor's take on the play?

He wants the play ruled a "fight". A fight by definition is a Flagrant 2 Technical.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

He wants the play ruled a "fight". A fight by definition is a Flagrant 2 Technical.

I don't know much about NCAA rules but it certainly fits the definition of an NFHS fight: Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live. Fighting includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as: An attempt to strike, punch or kick by using a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Raymond

He wants the play ruled a "fight". A fight by definition is a Flagrant 2 Technical.

And you know what? I didn't consider that, but I agree with him.

Note - we have very little small college stuff here and almost all those that do it are driving huge distances routinely - up to 4 hours one way. I used to do 6-10 JuCo games every year, but those game paid barely more than HS games and were terrible to work.