Referee Shortage Discussion-- 127 unfilled varsity games

[crosscountry55]

I work in RI now. Like BillyMac, it’s a state with all 2-person games. There is no officials shortage here. There are lots of guys who don’t work every night. As a transfer, I’ll likely be one of them.

If they went to 3-p, I’m sure I could work every night, but there would probably be some games that would be hard to fill.

The modern game badly needs the 3rd official (especially with a shot clock). The paradox is that between reluctant budget managers and an ongoing recruitment drought, you have to choose between more poorly officiated games or games that can’t be played when you want them to be. It’s a lose-lose.

I fear more places that have embraced 3-p may have to revert back to 2-p. It won’t yield a 50% boon, though, because folks like Rich will probably just hang it up rather than revert.

The whole situation kinda sucks...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rich]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

I work in RI now. Like BillyMac, it’s a state with all 2-person games. There is no officials shortage here. There are lots of guys who don’t work every night. As a transfer, I’ll likely be one of them.

If they went to 3-p, I’m sure I could work every night, but there would probably be some games that would be hard to fill.

The modern game badly needs the 3rd official (especially with a shot clock). The paradox is that between reluctant budget managers and an ongoing recruitment drought, you have to choose between more poorly officiated games or games that can’t be played when you want them to be. It’s a lose-lose.

I fear more places that have embraced 3-p may have to revert back to 2-p. It won’t yield a 50% boon, though, because folks like Rich will probably just hang it up rather than revert.

The whole situation kinda sucks...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm not that concerned about that here. And, yes, I will retire before working another 2-person game. I may end up having to do so anyway -- my knee is not recovering after my May surgery and I'm not sure I will be able to do a job in the way I need to.

[ilyazhito]

Why don't associations call up more JV guys to do varsity, especially JV guys who do have 3P experience? It would be a great learning experience for the JV official to work with veterans in the R and U1 positions (correct me if I am wrong, but R's and U1's handle most of the game management responsibilities, although U2's do contribute on adjudication and calling technical fouls if needed to preserve order), to gain a feel for varsity games pending a full (er) varsity schedule in future years. It would also be great for the veterans, who will have opportunities to teach younger officials, show leadership, and work alongside talented officials who are still receptive to new ideas.

Note: I am NOT advocating that ALL JV officials be promoted (some will not be able to work varsity games), rather that there be a transparent timeline and pipeline to enable that process to happen. Some associations have "swing" officials who can work at both varsity and JV levels, so that might help, particularly if an association is short on people. A JV crew with 1 swing official can leave the 1 swing guy behind to join the other 2 varsity officials for the varsity game.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Why don't associations call up more JV guys to do varsity, especially JV guys who do have 3P experience? It would be a great learning experience for the JV official to work with veterans in the R and U1 positions (correct me if I am wrong, but R's and U1's handle most of the game management responsibilities, although U2's do contribute on adjudication and calling technical fouls if needed to preserve order), to gain a feel for varsity games pending a full (er) varsity schedule in future years. It would also be great for the veterans, who will have opportunities to teach younger officials, show leadership, and work alongside talented officials who are still receptive to new ideas.

Note: I am NOT advocating that ALL JV officials be promoted (some will not be able to work varsity games), rather that there be a transparent timeline and pipeline to enable that process to happen. Some associations have "swing" officials who can work at both varsity and JV levels, so that might help, particularly if an association is short on people. A JV crew with 1 swing official can leave the 1 swing guy behind to join the other 2 varsity officials for the varsity game.

That is not how 3-p works.

A weak U2 can destroy a game as fast as anything. Once the game starts, the U2 is just as important as the R for all practical purposes.

3-p is more complicated and many JV officials just aren't not ready to add that. They've got enough to work on without complicating it with 3-person mechanics.

JV officials are brought in in phases similar to what you suggest (in most places). Few have exclusive varsity rosters and exclusive JV rosters. There will often be people working both to some degree.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That is not how 3-p works.



A weak U2 can destroy a game as fast as anything. Once the game starts, the U2 is just as important as the R for all practical purposes.



3-p is more complicated and many JV officials just aren't not ready to add that. They're got enough to work on without complicating it with 3-person mechanics.



JV officials are brought in in phases similar to what you suggest (in most places). Few have exclusive varsity rosters and exclusive JV rosters. There will often be people working both to some degree.

For all the words he posts, he sure seems to know little about how games are officiated.

The R or designee tosses the ball and after that, the officials are interchangable. You can't put someone who's learning on every game, but I'd take someone who's a fairly decent JV official over 2-person ANY day.

Assigner hat here: And the schools would be right to not pay a dime more per person with 2-person crews. It's not their fault they aren't getting three officials.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Rich

....

Assigner hat here: And the schools would be right to not pay a dime more per person with 2-person crews. It's not their fault they aren't getting three officials.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

It is their fault if the pay is not good enough to entice officials to leave their homes and families to referee games. And someone like me, I'm not working a 2-man game at the same rate that I would be getting in a 3-man game. That would be in the category of "not worth leaving my house for".

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Why don't associations call up more JV guys to do varsity, especially JV guys who do have 3P experience? It would be a great learning experience for the JV official to work with veterans in the R and U1 positions (correct me if I am wrong, but R's and U1's handle most of the game management responsibilities, although U2's do contribute on adjudication and calling technical fouls if needed to preserve order), to gain a feel for varsity games pending a full (er) varsity schedule in future years. It would also be great for the veterans, who will have opportunities to teach younger officials, show leadership, and work alongside talented officials who are still receptive to new ideas.

Not only are you wrong here, you are so wrong it is hard to describe how wrong you are.

Actually assignors the higher you go like all officials to be "R" officials. Basically, that means that any official can handle any situation and can take the lead on every situation in that game. The actual Referee might be the most accomplished or experienced official in many cases, but if that person could not do their duties, then supervisors like to hire officials that are just as capable to do everything game brings. Whether that is T'ing a coach, adjusting the clock, handling game administration (things outside the lines) or just taking the big call. Usually, this is harder for younger/newer officials to fit in those situations when the pressure is on. Now we all have to learn somewhere so it is not out of the question to move newer officials up, but that cannot be the solution on multiple games or most of the season. And usually, it is an official that has proven over some years they can work.

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Note: I am NOT advocating that ALL JV officials be promoted (some will not be able to work varsity games), rather that there be a transparent timeline and pipeline to enable that process to happen. Some associations have "swing" officials who can work at both varsity and JV levels, so that might help, particularly if an association is short on people. A JV crew with 1 swing official can leave the 1 swing guy behind to join the other 2 varsity officials for the varsity game.

Or associations could get out of the business of assigning. This seems to be part of the problem. I hear of all these shortages and in basketball, we are not having those issues. The assignor gives the games to the people they want and each conference has to do the same. Some people are willing to travel, others are not. Lower level games you can put almost anyone on those games. Varsity you have to be a little bit more deliberate, especially the bigger conference games. It is not totally a bad idea, but it is not something you can count all.

Peace

[ilyazhito]

Good to know. I was under the impression that R's and U1's are usually the senior guys, with U2's being the junior officials. Thus, R and U1 would perform the heavy lifting when it comes to game management. U2 would be responsible for knowing the rules and making proper calls/corrections on correctable errors. By rule, R has responsibility for the official timer, official (and additional) scorers, shot clock operator, and making the final ruling if officials cannot agree on a call. Other than the responsibilities described in the mechanics manual, what game management responsibilities do U1 and U2 have? Once the game begins, all officials have the same responsibilities for calling fouls and violations, administering timeouts and substitutions, and correcting timing, scoring, and alternating possession errors.

The good ol' boys network would be a major problem, because it prevents talented younger (and older officials) from getting the experience that they need to become the go-to varsity veteran and crew chief officials in the next ~10 years when the current veterans retire. When I meet officials doing other sports, I talk to them, ask them about officiating experience, and offer myself as a resource, also giving them other relevant contacts. If each official can get other people involved, that would help with the shortage, but then there would need to be a way to keep the new officials engaged, so they continue.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Good to know. I was under the impression that R's and U1's are usually the senior guys, with U2's being the junior officials. Thus, R and U1 would perform the heavy lifting when it comes to game management. U2 would be responsible for knowing the rules and making proper calls/corrections on correctable errors. By rule, R has responsibility for the official timer, official (and additional) scorers, shot clock operator, and making the final ruling if officials cannot agree on a call. Other than the responsibilities described in the mechanics manual, what game management responsibilities do U1 and U2 have? Once the game begins, all officials have the same responsibilities for calling fouls and violations, administering timeouts and substitutions, and correcting timing, scoring, and alternating possession errors.

The good ol' boys network would be a major problem, because it prevents talented younger (and older officials) from getting the experience that they need to become the go-to varsity veteran and crew chief officials in the next ~10 years when the current veterans retire. When I meet officials doing other sports, I talk to them, ask them about officiating experience, and offer myself as a resource, also giving them other relevant contacts. If each official can get other people involved, that would help with the shortage, but then there would need to be a way to keep the new officials engaged, so they continue.

There's an old phrase. Sometimes ypu just gotta ref. I get the feeling you will struggle with that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[UNIgiantslayers]

To address a couple of interesting points:
We do have a pipeline of sorts. Our big metro conference gets 3 person for most of their JV games. That's a good place for new/young officials to network and figure out how to get varsity games. Then, you're typically trusted on a few small varsity games the first year of varsity scheduling. The next couple years will be full schedule if you want it of varsity small school ball. After you prove yourself, attend a few camps, our current assignor will give you a chance on a couple of big conference games. If you do well, you'll get more the next year. If you don't do well, you'll get a couple the next year to improve or improve yourself. I think that works well.

Rich, while I can appreciate your view as an assignor, the 2 man game is a LOT harder and more work than 3. If I were getting the same paycheck for 2 man, I would turn those games back. If that ended my time as an official, that's fine with me as I'm not interested in doing 2 man varsity double headers for $90 a night. I'm not sure if I would be in the minority or majority, and I'd have to think pretty hard about that decision but I just don't see myself driving to Glidden-Ralston, Iowa for a game in front of 40 people where the game check barely pays for fuel and not enjoying the game. Hell, I don't want to go there to do 3 man, but we all take our lumps a few times a season. 2 man, to me, is not fun. At all.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

To address a couple of interesting points:

We do have a pipeline of sorts. Our big metro conference gets 3 person for most of their JV games. That's a good place for new/young officials to network and figure out how to get varsity games. Then, you're typically trusted on a few small varsity games the first year of varsity scheduling. The next couple years will be full schedule if you want it of varsity small school ball. After you prove yourself, attend a few camps, our current assignor will give you a chance on a couple of big conference games. If you do well, you'll get more the next year. If you don't do well, you'll get a couple the next year to improve or improve yourself. I think that works well.



Rich, while I can appreciate your view as an assignor, the 2 man game is a LOT harder and more work than 3. If I were getting the same paycheck for 2 man, I would turn those games back. If that ended my time as an official, that's fine with me as I'm not interested in doing 2 man varsity double headers for $90 a night. I'm not sure if I would be in the minority or majority, and I'd have to think pretty hard about that decision but I just don't see myself driving to Glidden-Ralston, Iowa for a game in front of 40 people where the game check barely pays for fuel and not enjoying the game. Hell, I don't want to go there to do 3 man, but we all take our lumps a few times a season. 2 man, to me, is not fun. At all.

To me, it depends on who is requesting 2 officials. If the officials association tells certain schools they only get two, how is this the school's fault?

My 24 schools are in the smallest two divisions in the state. If anyone suggested that the bigger schools deserved that third official more than mine, I'd be as loud as I needed to be to make sure that didn't happen. Our games are physical and need the third official just as much.

Fortunately, our system here has each league hiring licensed officials and I can use anyone willing to drive to the location and work. Right now, I have no shortage.

I try to make sure we're competitive with pay. We pay more than most and the big school conferences feel they can pay less cause officials want to work those games. As an official, I've realized that there's a lot of joy in worrking for smaller schools. Once everyone went to 3-person, I stopped worrying about filling my schedule with big school games. I'd rather stay closer to home.

But if I was a school who was told "You're only getting two" I'd fight paying more money.

An example from a few years ago. Scheduling mixup at a game I was working. Only 2 officials. Partner thought we'd get paid the three checks for the two of us. I said, "why should we? Not the school's fault. And our contract doesn't promise a crew size." I got one of the JV officials to stay.

As far as me as an official? I will simply never again accept a game with fewer than 3 officials. Easy.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

I'm not interested in doing 2 man varsity double headers for $90 a night.

I'm on record (I may be the only Forum member to take such stand) as liking the mental and physical challenge of a two person game.

That being said, if I belonged to an association that worked a lot of doubleheaders, I would be the first to jump on the three person bandwagon.



Here in my little corner of Connecticut, coaches and athletic directors frown upon varsity officials working two games. They're afraid that the officials may not be fully prepared to properly (mentally and physically) work that second game.

I've worked exactly one junior varsity/varsity doubleheader in the past twenty-plus years, only due to an overabundance of games and an underabundance of officials after several postponements and reschedules due to snow.

Now that I've retired from my day job I've made myself available to my assigner for afternoon games, including subvarsity games. I've got a freshman/junior varsity doubleheader coming up in a few weeks and I'm not looking forward to it. Not because they're subvarsity games, but because I have to work a doubleheader. And it has nothing to do with time, as a varsity official I'm always there to observe the first three periods of the junior varsity game before mine. In fact, after my doubleheader I can see myself staying for at least half of the varsity game (like our junior varsity officials are supposed to do) just to yank some chains.

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

To address a couple of interesting points:
We do have a pipeline of sorts. Our big metro conference gets 3 person for most of their JV games. That's a good place for new/young officials to network and figure out how to get varsity games. Then, you're typically trusted on a few small varsity games the first year of varsity scheduling. The next couple years will be full schedule if you want it of varsity small school ball. After you prove yourself, attend a few camps, our current assignor will give you a chance on a couple of big conference games. If you do well, you'll get more the next year. If you don't do well, you'll get a couple the next year to improve or improve yourself. I think that works well.

Rich, while I can appreciate your view as an assignor, the 2 man game is a LOT harder and more work than 3. If I were getting the same paycheck for 2 man, I would turn those games back. If that ended my time as an official, that's fine with me as I'm not interested in doing 2 man varsity double headers for $90 a night. I'm not sure if I would be in the minority or majority, and I'd have to think pretty hard about that decision but I just don't see myself driving to Glidden-Ralston, Iowa for a game in front of 40 people where the game check barely pays for fuel and not enjoying the game. Hell, I don't want to go there to do 3 man, but we all take our lumps a few times a season. 2 man, to me, is not fun. At all.

I love reading all the posts. Some of you guys are very experienced and very knowledgeable. Great info.

The only part of the above post I agree with in regards to "the 2 man game is a LOT harder and more work than 3" is that it's a lot harder to catch everything.

If you have a good 3 man crew, you should still be working hard and doing your best at all times. It just bugs me a little when people say that you work harder in a 2 man crew. I disagree. I think all good officials word just as hard at all time. Just my opinion.

One more thing to agree on. 2 man is not fun at all. I'm glad we don't do 2 man ever anymore where I ref. I still believe that if I get 2 great partners, we are still working as hard. We just catch more with the extra set of eyes.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Good to know. I was under the impression that R's and U1's are usually the senior guys, with U2's being the junior officials. Thus, R and U1 would perform the heavy lifting when it comes to game management. U2 would be responsible for knowing the rules and making proper calls/corrections on correctable errors. By rule, R has responsibility for the official timer, official (and additional) scorers, shot clock operator, and making the final ruling if officials cannot agree on a call. Other than the responsibilities described in the mechanics manual, what game management responsibilities do U1 and U2 have? Once the game begins, all officials have the same responsibilities for calling fouls and violations, administering timeouts and substitutions, and correcting timing, scoring, and alternating possession errors.

The good ol' boys network would be a major problem, because it prevents talented younger (and older officials) from getting the experience that they need to become the go-to varsity veteran and crew chief officials in the next ~10 years when the current veterans retire. When I meet officials doing other sports, I talk to them, ask them about officiating experience, and offer myself as a resource, also giving them other relevant contacts. If each official can get other people involved, that would help with the shortage, but then there would need to be a way to keep the new officials engaged, so they continue.

I think you're basing your assumptions on the NBA model, which clearly defines the expected roles of each official.

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I think you're basing your assumptions on the NBA model, which clearly defines the expected roles of each official.

I guess I am. Al Battista did make a presentation on the different roles and expectations of a 3-man crew, and I did hear similar things about the roles of 3-man crew members during the years I went to Level One camp, so college officials apparently also have the same expectations. Que'z did say that he would come to the U2's on his games for rules questions, because they were more likely to be in the book than the veteran officials. On a related note, U2 did get his schedule improved for telling a crew that dead ball technical fouls are not POI in a difficult game, even though he was ignored by the senior crew members, because he did his job, while R and U1 did not do theirs.

Perhaps Al was using the NBA model for his presentation as well, and Que'z (and other officials) are also using that model at the college level without necessarily knowing about it.

I agree with Rich's sentiment on refusing 2-person games, although I'm not yet at a stage in my career where I have much choice. If I start getting varsity games consistently, then I could choose to work only 3-person at the varsity level, with 2-person subvarsity games. Of course, if and when I reach the college level, I would probably not have time for subvarsity games anyway.