Referee Shortage Discussion-- 127 unfilled varsity games

[ilyazhito]

Why don't associations call up more JV guys to do varsity, especially JV guys who do have 3P experience? It would be a great learning experience for the JV official to work with veterans in the R and U1 positions (correct me if I am wrong, but R's and U1's handle most of the game management responsibilities, although U2's do contribute on adjudication and calling technical fouls if needed to preserve order), to gain a feel for varsity games pending a full (er) varsity schedule in future years. It would also be great for the veterans, who will have opportunities to teach younger officials, show leadership, and work alongside talented officials who are still receptive to new ideas.

Note: I am NOT advocating that ALL JV officials be promoted (some will not be able to work varsity games), rather that there be a transparent timeline and pipeline to enable that process to happen. Some associations have "swing" officials who can work at both varsity and JV levels, so that might help, particularly if an association is short on people. A JV crew with 1 swing official can leave the 1 swing guy behind to join the other 2 varsity officials for the varsity game.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Why don't associations call up more JV guys to do varsity, especially JV guys who do have 3P experience? It would be a great learning experience for the JV official to work with veterans in the R and U1 positions (correct me if I am wrong, but R's and U1's handle most of the game management responsibilities, although U2's do contribute on adjudication and calling technical fouls if needed to preserve order), to gain a feel for varsity games pending a full (er) varsity schedule in future years. It would also be great for the veterans, who will have opportunities to teach younger officials, show leadership, and work alongside talented officials who are still receptive to new ideas.

Note: I am NOT advocating that ALL JV officials be promoted (some will not be able to work varsity games), rather that there be a transparent timeline and pipeline to enable that process to happen. Some associations have "swing" officials who can work at both varsity and JV levels, so that might help, particularly if an association is short on people. A JV crew with 1 swing official can leave the 1 swing guy behind to join the other 2 varsity officials for the varsity game.

That is not how 3-p works.

A weak U2 can destroy a game as fast as anything. Once the game starts, the U2 is just as important as the R for all practical purposes.

3-p is more complicated and many JV officials just aren't not ready to add that. They've got enough to work on without complicating it with 3-person mechanics.

JV officials are brought in in phases similar to what you suggest (in most places). Few have exclusive varsity rosters and exclusive JV rosters. There will often be people working both to some degree.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That is not how 3-p works.



A weak U2 can destroy a game as fast as anything. Once the game starts, the U2 is just as important as the R for all practical purposes.



3-p is more complicated and many JV officials just aren't not ready to add that. They're got enough to work on without complicating it with 3-person mechanics.



JV officials are brought in in phases similar to what you suggest (in most places). Few have exclusive varsity rosters and exclusive JV rosters. There will often be people working both to some degree.

For all the words he posts, he sure seems to know little about how games are officiated.

The R or designee tosses the ball and after that, the officials are interchangable. You can't put someone who's learning on every game, but I'd take someone who's a fairly decent JV official over 2-person ANY day.

Assigner hat here: And the schools would be right to not pay a dime more per person with 2-person crews. It's not their fault they aren't getting three officials.


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[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Rich

....

Assigner hat here: And the schools would be right to not pay a dime more per person with 2-person crews. It's not their fault they aren't getting three officials.


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It is their fault if the pay is not good enough to entice officials to leave their homes and families to referee games. And someone like me, I'm not working a 2-man game at the same rate that I would be getting in a 3-man game. That would be in the category of "not worth leaving my house for".

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Why don't associations call up more JV guys to do varsity, especially JV guys who do have 3P experience? It would be a great learning experience for the JV official to work with veterans in the R and U1 positions (correct me if I am wrong, but R's and U1's handle most of the game management responsibilities, although U2's do contribute on adjudication and calling technical fouls if needed to preserve order), to gain a feel for varsity games pending a full (er) varsity schedule in future years. It would also be great for the veterans, who will have opportunities to teach younger officials, show leadership, and work alongside talented officials who are still receptive to new ideas.

Not only are you wrong here, you are so wrong it is hard to describe how wrong you are.

Actually assignors the higher you go like all officials to be "R" officials. Basically, that means that any official can handle any situation and can take the lead on every situation in that game. The actual Referee might be the most accomplished or experienced official in many cases, but if that person could not do their duties, then supervisors like to hire officials that are just as capable to do everything game brings. Whether that is T'ing a coach, adjusting the clock, handling game administration (things outside the lines) or just taking the big call. Usually, this is harder for younger/newer officials to fit in those situations when the pressure is on. Now we all have to learn somewhere so it is not out of the question to move newer officials up, but that cannot be the solution on multiple games or most of the season. And usually, it is an official that has proven over some years they can work.

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Note: I am NOT advocating that ALL JV officials be promoted (some will not be able to work varsity games), rather that there be a transparent timeline and pipeline to enable that process to happen. Some associations have "swing" officials who can work at both varsity and JV levels, so that might help, particularly if an association is short on people. A JV crew with 1 swing official can leave the 1 swing guy behind to join the other 2 varsity officials for the varsity game.

Or associations could get out of the business of assigning. This seems to be part of the problem. I hear of all these shortages and in basketball, we are not having those issues. The assignor gives the games to the people they want and each conference has to do the same. Some people are willing to travel, others are not. Lower level games you can put almost anyone on those games. Varsity you have to be a little bit more deliberate, especially the bigger conference games. It is not totally a bad idea, but it is not something you can count all.

Peace

[ilyazhito]

Good to know. I was under the impression that R's and U1's are usually the senior guys, with U2's being the junior officials. Thus, R and U1 would perform the heavy lifting when it comes to game management. U2 would be responsible for knowing the rules and making proper calls/corrections on correctable errors. By rule, R has responsibility for the official timer, official (and additional) scorers, shot clock operator, and making the final ruling if officials cannot agree on a call. Other than the responsibilities described in the mechanics manual, what game management responsibilities do U1 and U2 have? Once the game begins, all officials have the same responsibilities for calling fouls and violations, administering timeouts and substitutions, and correcting timing, scoring, and alternating possession errors.

The good ol' boys network would be a major problem, because it prevents talented younger (and older officials) from getting the experience that they need to become the go-to varsity veteran and crew chief officials in the next ~10 years when the current veterans retire. When I meet officials doing other sports, I talk to them, ask them about officiating experience, and offer myself as a resource, also giving them other relevant contacts. If each official can get other people involved, that would help with the shortage, but then there would need to be a way to keep the new officials engaged, so they continue.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Good to know. I was under the impression that R's and U1's are usually the senior guys, with U2's being the junior officials. Thus, R and U1 would perform the heavy lifting when it comes to game management. U2 would be responsible for knowing the rules and making proper calls/corrections on correctable errors. By rule, R has responsibility for the official timer, official (and additional) scorers, shot clock operator, and making the final ruling if officials cannot agree on a call. Other than the responsibilities described in the mechanics manual, what game management responsibilities do U1 and U2 have? Once the game begins, all officials have the same responsibilities for calling fouls and violations, administering timeouts and substitutions, and correcting timing, scoring, and alternating possession errors.

The good ol' boys network would be a major problem, because it prevents talented younger (and older officials) from getting the experience that they need to become the go-to varsity veteran and crew chief officials in the next ~10 years when the current veterans retire. When I meet officials doing other sports, I talk to them, ask them about officiating experience, and offer myself as a resource, also giving them other relevant contacts. If each official can get other people involved, that would help with the shortage, but then there would need to be a way to keep the new officials engaged, so they continue.

There's an old phrase. Sometimes ypu just gotta ref. I get the feeling you will struggle with that.


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[UNIgiantslayers]

To address a couple of interesting points:
We do have a pipeline of sorts. Our big metro conference gets 3 person for most of their JV games. That's a good place for new/young officials to network and figure out how to get varsity games. Then, you're typically trusted on a few small varsity games the first year of varsity scheduling. The next couple years will be full schedule if you want it of varsity small school ball. After you prove yourself, attend a few camps, our current assignor will give you a chance on a couple of big conference games. If you do well, you'll get more the next year. If you don't do well, you'll get a couple the next year to improve or improve yourself. I think that works well.

Rich, while I can appreciate your view as an assignor, the 2 man game is a LOT harder and more work than 3. If I were getting the same paycheck for 2 man, I would turn those games back. If that ended my time as an official, that's fine with me as I'm not interested in doing 2 man varsity double headers for $90 a night. I'm not sure if I would be in the minority or majority, and I'd have to think pretty hard about that decision but I just don't see myself driving to Glidden-Ralston, Iowa for a game in front of 40 people where the game check barely pays for fuel and not enjoying the game. Hell, I don't want to go there to do 3 man, but we all take our lumps a few times a season. 2 man, to me, is not fun. At all.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

To address a couple of interesting points:

We do have a pipeline of sorts. Our big metro conference gets 3 person for most of their JV games. That's a good place for new/young officials to network and figure out how to get varsity games. Then, you're typically trusted on a few small varsity games the first year of varsity scheduling. The next couple years will be full schedule if you want it of varsity small school ball. After you prove yourself, attend a few camps, our current assignor will give you a chance on a couple of big conference games. If you do well, you'll get more the next year. If you don't do well, you'll get a couple the next year to improve or improve yourself. I think that works well.



Rich, while I can appreciate your view as an assignor, the 2 man game is a LOT harder and more work than 3. If I were getting the same paycheck for 2 man, I would turn those games back. If that ended my time as an official, that's fine with me as I'm not interested in doing 2 man varsity double headers for $90 a night. I'm not sure if I would be in the minority or majority, and I'd have to think pretty hard about that decision but I just don't see myself driving to Glidden-Ralston, Iowa for a game in front of 40 people where the game check barely pays for fuel and not enjoying the game. Hell, I don't want to go there to do 3 man, but we all take our lumps a few times a season. 2 man, to me, is not fun. At all.

To me, it depends on who is requesting 2 officials. If the officials association tells certain schools they only get two, how is this the school's fault?

My 24 schools are in the smallest two divisions in the state. If anyone suggested that the bigger schools deserved that third official more than mine, I'd be as loud as I needed to be to make sure that didn't happen. Our games are physical and need the third official just as much.

Fortunately, our system here has each league hiring licensed officials and I can use anyone willing to drive to the location and work. Right now, I have no shortage.

I try to make sure we're competitive with pay. We pay more than most and the big school conferences feel they can pay less cause officials want to work those games. As an official, I've realized that there's a lot of joy in worrking for smaller schools. Once everyone went to 3-person, I stopped worrying about filling my schedule with big school games. I'd rather stay closer to home.

But if I was a school who was told "You're only getting two" I'd fight paying more money.

An example from a few years ago. Scheduling mixup at a game I was working. Only 2 officials. Partner thought we'd get paid the three checks for the two of us. I said, "why should we? Not the school's fault. And our contract doesn't promise a crew size." I got one of the JV officials to stay.

As far as me as an official? I will simply never again accept a game with fewer than 3 officials. Easy.


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[UNIgiantslayers]

Originally Posted by Rich

To me, it depends on who is requesting 2 officials. If the officials association tells certain schools they only get two, how is this the school's fault?
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An example from a few years ago. Scheduling mixup at a game I was working. Only 2 officials. Partner thought we'd get paid the three checks for the two of us. I said, "why should we? Not the school's fault. And our contract doesn't promise a crew size." I got one of the JV officials to stay.

You know what? That's a really great point. I suppose it just depends from which perspective you look at it. I'm on the older end of the millennial generation and a part of Trump's America, so I was only looking at it from my own lens.

As far as me as an official? I will simply never again accept a game with fewer than 3 officials. Easy

I imagine that would be my strategy as well. I don't know how well that would go over with my assignor though, so that may spell an end to a below average officiating career.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Rich

As far as me as an official? I will simply never again accept a game with fewer than 3 officials. Easy.

While the Navy keeps moving me around, I don’t have this luxury. However, in five years or so when I retire, I’ll have to settle somewhere. I told my wife I don’t care where, as long as they have 3-person.



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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

I'm not interested in doing 2 man varsity double headers for $90 a night.

I'm on record (I may be the only Forum member to take such stand) as liking the mental and physical challenge of a two person game.

That being said, if I belonged to an association that worked a lot of doubleheaders, I would be the first to jump on the three person bandwagon.



Here in my little corner of Connecticut, coaches and athletic directors frown upon varsity officials working two games. They're afraid that the officials may not be fully prepared to properly (mentally and physically) work that second game.

I've worked exactly one junior varsity/varsity doubleheader in the past twenty-plus years, only due to an overabundance of games and an underabundance of officials after several postponements and reschedules due to snow.

Now that I've retired from my day job I've made myself available to my assigner for afternoon games, including subvarsity games. I've got a freshman/junior varsity doubleheader coming up in a few weeks and I'm not looking forward to it. Not because they're subvarsity games, but because I have to work a doubleheader. And it has nothing to do with time, as a varsity official I'm always there to observe the first three periods of the junior varsity game before mine. In fact, after my doubleheader I can see myself staying for at least half of the varsity game (like our junior varsity officials are supposed to do) just to yank some chains.

[UNIgiantslayers]

Our state does almost exclusively B/G varsity double headers. They have what we call supernights to save on facilities/transportation costs. Freshmen, JV, Varsity Boys and girls will all be played on the same night. So it typically goes

GAME 1: JV girls or boys in main gym (Crew 1), Other JV game in auxiliary gym (Crew 2).

GAME 2: Freshman Boys Aux gym (Crew 2), Varsity Girls main gym (Crew 3).

GAME 3: Freshman Girls Aux Gym (Crew 2 or some combination of crew 1 & 2), Varsity Boys main gym (Crew 3).

Or if you're having trouble envisioning that, the gym schedule looks like this:

Aux gym: Game 1 Freshman girls, Game 2 JV Boys, Game 3 JV Girls

Main gym: Game 1 Freshman Boys, Game 2 Varsity girls, Game 3 Varsity boys

A lot of times those freshman games are 2 man, but for the most part all of those games are 3 person crews in the big conference here. If you go to a small school, you can pretty much count on all sub varsity games being 2 man. Subvarsity officials on those nights will work 1, 2, or 3 games depending on desire and luck of the draw. Varsity officials work the doubleheader.

That schedule allows for sub varsity kids to be available for varsity games. I started out working these nights, and I liked working the triple header because you would make a bit more. As a sub varsity ref, you don't get paid as much per game as the varsity guys but you can make up the difference and more if you're willing to put in some time away from family. I think if we had a glut of officials, they would probably prefer not to have people work 3 games in a night because by the end of that third game, you are wiped.

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

To address a couple of interesting points:
We do have a pipeline of sorts. Our big metro conference gets 3 person for most of their JV games. That's a good place for new/young officials to network and figure out how to get varsity games. Then, you're typically trusted on a few small varsity games the first year of varsity scheduling. The next couple years will be full schedule if you want it of varsity small school ball. After you prove yourself, attend a few camps, our current assignor will give you a chance on a couple of big conference games. If you do well, you'll get more the next year. If you don't do well, you'll get a couple the next year to improve or improve yourself. I think that works well.

Rich, while I can appreciate your view as an assignor, the 2 man game is a LOT harder and more work than 3. If I were getting the same paycheck for 2 man, I would turn those games back. If that ended my time as an official, that's fine with me as I'm not interested in doing 2 man varsity double headers for $90 a night. I'm not sure if I would be in the minority or majority, and I'd have to think pretty hard about that decision but I just don't see myself driving to Glidden-Ralston, Iowa for a game in front of 40 people where the game check barely pays for fuel and not enjoying the game. Hell, I don't want to go there to do 3 man, but we all take our lumps a few times a season. 2 man, to me, is not fun. At all.

I love reading all the posts. Some of you guys are very experienced and very knowledgeable. Great info.

The only part of the above post I agree with in regards to "the 2 man game is a LOT harder and more work than 3" is that it's a lot harder to catch everything.

If you have a good 3 man crew, you should still be working hard and doing your best at all times. It just bugs me a little when people say that you work harder in a 2 man crew. I disagree. I think all good officials word just as hard at all time. Just my opinion.

One more thing to agree on. 2 man is not fun at all. I'm glad we don't do 2 man ever anymore where I ref. I still believe that if I get 2 great partners, we are still working as hard. We just catch more with the extra set of eyes.

[UNIgiantslayers]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

I love reading all the posts. Some of you guys are very experienced and very knowledgeable. Great info.

The only part of the above post I agree with in regards to "the 2 man game is a LOT harder and more work than 3" is that it's a lot harder to catch everything.

If you have a good 3 man crew, you should still be working hard and doing your best at all times. It just bugs me a little when people say that you work harder in a 2 man crew. I disagree. I think all good officials word just as hard at all time. Just my opinion.

One more thing to agree on. 2 man is not fun at all. I'm glad we don't do 2 man ever anymore where I ref. I still believe that if I get 2 great partners, we are still working as hard. We just catch more with the extra set of eyes.

I never said that I'm working harder in a 2 person game. I stated that it's a lot harder and more work. There is a small difference there. More to watch and more running. If you're running the same amount in a 2 person as you do in 3 man, it would seem to me that you're not in good position in the 2 man game (i.e. sitting just over the division line at T).

There may be guys who don't work "as hard" in a 3 man game, but that's not me. I got dinged on an eval a couple years back for "overhustling." Whatever that means. There's no question that I'm working my ass off in both games. I'm also fairly young as far as officials go around this area, and in pretty good shape due to my hobbies. I don't say that to be a doucher, but just to emphasize that hustling around a varsity doubleheader is not something that's going to beat me down too badly and I don't have a lot of trouble keeping up with guys even at the end of a long night. I work hard in my 3 man games. I hope I don't sound like a braggart by saying that, I really don't mean to.

As to your other points, I wholeheartedly agree.