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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 13, 2018, 11:11am
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I've always thought giving coaches say in who works the postseason is stupid. You can't pay lip service about how important sportsmanship is then disincentivize penalizing poor behavior by letting the inmates run the asylum. There are too many high school coaches that take technical fouls personally and don't move on. However in South Carolina we have peer ratings which are equally as stupid IMO.

As for the good ol' boys club, well that happens everywhere to an extent. And the reality is that assigners are almost always going to use guys they trust and that they know will keep them out of hot water with the schools. Sometimes it's the coaches more than the assigners dictating who works their games because there are too many coaches that will bitch and moan when they get an official that they've never seen before. All of a sudden there is one call that the new guy may or may not have missed, and the assigner is getting a phone call after the game.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 13, 2018, 11:15am
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I’d rather run the captains meeting so I know it’s going to be quick. They’re not listening anyway.

After the first couple weeks of the season it usually ends up something like
“Fellas, help us keep it clean here tonight. IAHSAA requires us to emphasize sportsmanship so as captains you guys should be great examples. You know who your hot heads are. Get to them before we do or it will cost your team 2 free throws. Coaches, everybody legally and properly equipped? First horn let’s try to break the huddles, have em ready to play on the second horn so we can keep it moving tonight. Have a good game guys.”
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 13, 2018, 11:20am
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"We expect you to play cleanly and show good sportsmanship. Any questions? Good luck."

None of the nonsense about "speaking captains." None of the "white talk to white, blue talk to blue." None of the "blue line all the way around."

And if I notice there are team members with illegal equipment on during warm-ups, I will request that the captains take care of it before we throw the ball up.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 13, 2018, 11:52am
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As an assigner, any complaint must be accompanied by game film for me to take time on it.

Any complaint about a coach from an official generally better be accompanied by a technical foul report. You didn't whack him, you didn't have a problem.

Our state does the rating thing. I wouldn't miss them if they were gone. I've never used them to make hiring decisions. If I need a reference, I'll ask an official I trust - someone who actually understands officiating.


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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 13, 2018, 11:57am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Come back to Hampton Roads. My HS assignor is looking to make everything 3-man.

Funny you should mention that. I’m working on a masters degree this year so I’m only here for a year. My next assignment is trending Norfolk. Outside chance it could be DC, but right now Norfolk seems where I’m headed.

Should I go back to 94 or work on the peninsula? (I haven’t been following Tidewater board politics lately.). The wife is going to want to live in VB, so if I go peninsula that would involve a lot of “tunneling” to get to games. But I would do it if the organization there is eager to employ me with a full schedule commensurate with my experience and ability.

I wouldn’t mind retiring in HR. Lots of jobs for washed up vets and my wife is from there...


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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 13, 2018, 12:04pm
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Doubleheaders ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers View Post
I'm not interested in doing 2 man varsity double headers for $90 a night.
I'm on record (I may be the only Forum member to take such stand) as liking the mental and physical challenge of a two person game.

That being said, if I belonged to an association that worked a lot of doubleheaders, I would be the first to jump on the three person bandwagon.



Here in my little corner of Connecticut, coaches and athletic directors frown upon varsity officials working two games. They're afraid that the officials may not be fully prepared to properly (mentally and physically) work that second game.

I've worked exactly one junior varsity/varsity doubleheader in the past twenty-plus years, only due to an overabundance of games and an underabundance of officials after several postponements and reschedules due to snow.

Now that I've retired from my day job I've made myself available to my assigner for afternoon games, including subvarsity games. I've got a freshman/junior varsity doubleheader coming up in a few weeks and I'm not looking forward to it. Not because they're subvarsity games, but because I have to work a doubleheader. And it has nothing to do with time, as a varsity official I'm always there to observe the first three periods of the junior varsity game before mine. In fact, after my doubleheader I can see myself staying for at least half of the varsity game (like our junior varsity officials are supposed to do) just to yank some chains.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Nov 13, 2018 at 12:12pm.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 13, 2018, 12:23pm
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Our state does almost exclusively B/G varsity double headers. They have what we call supernights to save on facilities/transportation costs. Freshmen, JV, Varsity Boys and girls will all be played on the same night. So it typically goes

GAME 1: JV girls or boys in main gym (Crew 1), Other JV game in auxiliary gym (Crew 2).

GAME 2: Freshman Boys Aux gym (Crew 2), Varsity Girls main gym (Crew 3).

GAME 3: Freshman Girls Aux Gym (Crew 2 or some combination of crew 1 & 2), Varsity Boys main gym (Crew 3).


Or if you're having trouble envisioning that, the gym schedule looks like this:

Aux gym: Game 1 Freshman girls, Game 2 JV Boys, Game 3 JV Girls

Main gym: Game 1 Freshman Boys, Game 2 Varsity girls, Game 3 Varsity boys


A lot of times those freshman games are 2 man, but for the most part all of those games are 3 person crews in the big conference here. If you go to a small school, you can pretty much count on all sub varsity games being 2 man. Subvarsity officials on those nights will work 1, 2, or 3 games depending on desire and luck of the draw. Varsity officials work the doubleheader.

That schedule allows for sub varsity kids to be available for varsity games. I started out working these nights, and I liked working the triple header because you would make a bit more. As a sub varsity ref, you don't get paid as much per game as the varsity guys but you can make up the difference and more if you're willing to put in some time away from family. I think if we had a glut of officials, they would probably prefer not to have people work 3 games in a night because by the end of that third game, you are wiped.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 13, 2018, 12:25pm
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Short And Sweet Pregame Captains Coaches Meeting ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jTheUmp View Post
Personally, I don't mind doing it (mainly because it eliminates a lot of "that guy" moments)
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers View Post
I’d rather run the captains meeting so I know it’s going to be quick. “Fellas, help us keep it clean here tonight ... emphasize sportsmanship so as captains you guys should be great examples. You know who your hot heads are. Get to them before we do or it will cost your team 2 free throws. Coaches, everybody legally and properly equipped? First horn let’s try to break the huddles, have em ready to play on the second horn so we can keep it moving tonight. Have a good game guys.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
"We expect you to play cleanly and show good sportsmanship. Any questions? Good luck." None of the nonsense about "speaking captains." None of the "white talk to white, blue talk to blue." None of the "blue line all the way around."
Mine: After the hand shaking/fist bumping ritual (I've worked with a guy who has a bottle of hand sanitizer in his jacket pocket and uses it after the meeting), "Are players legally equipped and do they know how to wear their uniforms properly? Everybody practice good sportsmanship. Have fun".

Now that IAABO mechanics state that the tossing official on the jump ball no longer checks for readiness with the captains, I'm hoping that we no longer get, "Who's the speaking captain? What's your number? Are you starting?".

Well, I can hope.

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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Nov 13, 2018 at 01:09pm.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 13, 2018, 12:32pm
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Baby Needs A New Pair Of Shoes ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers View Post
As a sub varsity ref, you don't get paid as much per game as the varsity guys but you can make up the difference and more if you're willing to put in some time away from family.
For my upcoming freshman/junior varsity doubleheader I'll be getting a check for $126.10 (subvarsity Fee: $63.05). If I only did the varsity game that night, it would be $97.17.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers View Post
... because by the end of that third game, you are wiped.
I'm afraid of this for my freshman/junior varsity doubleheader. I'm not the type to give freshman games and junior varsity games any less effort than I would working a varsity game.

It's funny how that while I get older each year the players stay the same age each year.

It's not fair I tell you. It's not fair.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Nov 13, 2018 at 12:37pm.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 13, 2018, 12:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers View Post
To address a couple of interesting points:
We do have a pipeline of sorts. Our big metro conference gets 3 person for most of their JV games. That's a good place for new/young officials to network and figure out how to get varsity games. Then, you're typically trusted on a few small varsity games the first year of varsity scheduling. The next couple years will be full schedule if you want it of varsity small school ball. After you prove yourself, attend a few camps, our current assignor will give you a chance on a couple of big conference games. If you do well, you'll get more the next year. If you don't do well, you'll get a couple the next year to improve or improve yourself. I think that works well.

Rich, while I can appreciate your view as an assignor, the 2 man game is a LOT harder and more work than 3. If I were getting the same paycheck for 2 man, I would turn those games back. If that ended my time as an official, that's fine with me as I'm not interested in doing 2 man varsity double headers for $90 a night. I'm not sure if I would be in the minority or majority, and I'd have to think pretty hard about that decision but I just don't see myself driving to Glidden-Ralston, Iowa for a game in front of 40 people where the game check barely pays for fuel and not enjoying the game. Hell, I don't want to go there to do 3 man, but we all take our lumps a few times a season. 2 man, to me, is not fun. At all.
I love reading all the posts. Some of you guys are very experienced and very knowledgeable. Great info.

The only part of the above post I agree with in regards to "the 2 man game is a LOT harder and more work than 3" is that it's a lot harder to catch everything.

If you have a good 3 man crew, you should still be working hard and doing your best at all times. It just bugs me a little when people say that you work harder in a 2 man crew. I disagree. I think all good officials word just as hard at all time. Just my opinion.

One more thing to agree on. 2 man is not fun at all. I'm glad we don't do 2 man ever anymore where I ref. I still believe that if I get 2 great partners, we are still working as hard. We just catch more with the extra set of eyes.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 13, 2018, 12:43pm
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I’m hearing more and more of a movement toward some states/locations working 3-p crews for JV. I know Ohio has done it for a while, now I hear Iowa does it to some extent, too. Any other places?

This is terrific. I always thought it was silly for officials to either have to learn 3-p by doing varsity games, or going to teaching camps just to get comfortable. Nothing wrong with teaching camps, but if that’s the only way to get 3-p experience prior to working a varsity contest, the system is flawed.

Well done to those states and ADs willing to pay a few more bucks for 3-p JV crews. They obviously recognize that they reap what they sow.


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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 13, 2018, 12:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
I’m hearing more and more of a movement toward some states/locations working 3-p crews for JV. I know Ohio has done it for a while, now I hear Iowa does it to some extent, too. Any other places?

This is terrific. I always thought it was silly for officials to either have to learn 3-p by doing varsity games, or going to teaching camps just to get comfortable. Nothing wrong with teaching camps, but if that’s the only way to get 3-p experience prior to working a varsity contest, the system is flawed.

Well done to those states and ADs willing to pay a few more bucks for 3-p JV crews. They obviously recognize that they reap what they sow.


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We do 3 man for all games that we show up for. If it's JV/V, we do 3 man. If we show up for VG/VB double header it's 3 man. No more 2 man unless there aren't enough bodies that night.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 13, 2018, 12:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
As an assigner, any complaint must be accompanied by game film for me to take time on it.

Any complaint about a coach from an official generally better be accompanied by a technical foul report. You didn't whack him, you didn't have a problem.

Our state does the rating thing. I wouldn't miss them if they were gone. I've never used them to make hiring decisions. If I need a reference, I'll ask an official I trust - someone who actually understands officiating.


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Unfortunately there are too many assigners who take coaches' complaints at face value without actually investigating their validity.

Do officials really call you to bitch about coaches?

Last edited by SC Official; Tue Nov 13, 2018 at 01:07pm.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 13, 2018, 12:57pm
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Some of the larger schools in South Carolina that have freshman boys teams will use 3-p crews for a tripleheader (freshman boys, JV girls, JV boys). That's the only time I've heard of 3-p being used for subvarsity here. The vast majority of schools don't have separate freshman teams.

We are 3-p for varsity statewide. Like Iowa almost all our assignments are G/B doubleheaders. Also in South Carolina the "per game" fee decreases the more games you work in a night. A single varsity game is $55 plus travel. A varsity DH is $78 plus travel.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 13, 2018, 01:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Referee View Post
I love reading all the posts. Some of you guys are very experienced and very knowledgeable. Great info.

The only part of the above post I agree with in regards to "the 2 man game is a LOT harder and more work than 3" is that it's a lot harder to catch everything.

If you have a good 3 man crew, you should still be working hard and doing your best at all times. It just bugs me a little when people say that you work harder in a 2 man crew. I disagree. I think all good officials word just as hard at all time. Just my opinion.

One more thing to agree on. 2 man is not fun at all. I'm glad we don't do 2 man ever anymore where I ref. I still believe that if I get 2 great partners, we are still working as hard. We just catch more with the extra set of eyes.
I never said that I'm working harder in a 2 person game. I stated that it's a lot harder and more work. There is a small difference there. More to watch and more running. If you're running the same amount in a 2 person as you do in 3 man, it would seem to me that you're not in good position in the 2 man game (i.e. sitting just over the division line at T).

There may be guys who don't work "as hard" in a 3 man game, but that's not me. I got dinged on an eval a couple years back for "overhustling." Whatever that means. There's no question that I'm working my ass off in both games. I'm also fairly young as far as officials go around this area, and in pretty good shape due to my hobbies. I don't say that to be a doucher, but just to emphasize that hustling around a varsity doubleheader is not something that's going to beat me down too badly and I don't have a lot of trouble keeping up with guys even at the end of a long night. I work hard in my 3 man games. I hope I don't sound like a braggart by saying that, I really don't mean to.

As to your other points, I wholeheartedly agree.
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