PLay With Five, Or Sit A Tick ...

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

2002-03 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS

SITUATION 5: Team A is playing with five players, but has no remaining substitutes available when one of the players has an asthma attack. The coach is beckoned onto the floor. RULING: The player must leave the game unless a time-out is requested and granted to Team A with the player being ready to resume by the end of the time-out. The team may continue with fewer than five players if there are no substitutes available. An injured/ill player may return to the game after recovery. (3-3-5)

What if Team A doesn't have any more timeouts? Will Team A be forced to take a timeout and a technical foul to play with five?

So the “must play with five” rule doesn't “trump” the “must sit a tick” rule. Also the “sit a tick” after being substituted for rule doesn't actually apply here because no substitution was actually made (there was no substitute). The “sit a tick” rule only applies here because the coach was beckoned onto the court to tend to an injury.

Slightly different situation. Team A only has five players, one eligible substitute, and no timeouts. Before the first free throw of a one and one, A-6 replaces A-5. The first free throw is successful but A-1 is seriously injured during the rebounding action. Of course, the clock hasn’t started. Case play 3.1.1 states “must have five players participating as long as it has that number available”. May A-5 reenter without “sitting a tick” to replace injured A-1 fulfilling the “five players participating” requirement, or is A-5 not “available” because he must “sit a tick”?

Does the “must play with five” rule ever “trump” the “must sit a tick” rule?

I seem to remember our local interpreter, many, many years ago, telling us that in a few specific cases the “must play with five” rule “trumps” the “must sit a tick” rule, but I’m getting to the age where I can’t even remember what I had for breakfast this morning.

Now, where are my car keys?

Sit 1) Of course they are not FORCED to take a TO and the case play comes no where close to implying that. The team can always request a TO (with the appropriate penalty).

Sit 2) There's a case / interp where A5 can return in this specific instance.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Team A only has five players, one eligible substitute, and no timeouts. Before the first free throw of a one and one, A-6 replaces A-5. The first free throw is successful but A-1 is seriously injured during the rebounding action. Of course, the clock hasn’t started. Case play 3.1.1 states “must have five players participating as long as it has that number available”. May A-5 reenter without “sitting a tick” to replace injured A-1 fulfilling the “five players participating” requirement, or is A-5 not “available” because he must “sit a tick”?

I just realized that the number of timeouts has no relevance above because under the circumstances in this situation the coach can't "buy" A-5 back into the game with a timeout even if he had a timeout and wanted to use it (unlike the "injury, beckon, timeout to stay in game" situation). A-5 wasn't injured, he was just part of a regular substitution and A-5, under almost all circumstances, maybe even under all circumstances, would have to "sit a tick".

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

There's a case / interp where A5 can return in this specific instance.

I thought so, but I can't find it, casebook or annual interpretation.

Can anybody help out here and find a citation that allows A-5 to get back into the game as a fifth player without having to "sit a tick""?

Nevadaref. This is right in your wheelhouse.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

2002-03 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS

SITUATION 5: Team A is playing with five players, but has no remaining substitutes available when one of the players has an asthma attack. The coach is beckoned onto the floor. RULING: The player must leave the game unless a time-out is requested and granted to Team A with the player being ready to resume by the end of the time-out. The team may continue with fewer than five players if there are no substitutes available. An injured/ill player may return to the game after recovery. (3-3-5)

What if Team A doesn't have any more timeouts? Will Team A be forced to take a timeout and a technical foul to play with five?

So the “must play with five” rule doesn't “trump” the “must sit a tick” rule. Also the “sit a tick” after being substituted for rule doesn't actually apply here because no substitution was actually made (there was no substitute). The “sit a tick” rule only applies here because the coach was beckoned onto the court to tend to an injury.

Slightly different situation. Team A only has five players, one eligible substitute, and no timeouts. Before the first free throw of a one and one, A-6 replaces A-5. The first free throw is successful but A-1 is seriously injured during the rebounding action. Of course, the clock hasn’t started. Case play 3.1.1 states “must have five players participating as long as it has that number available”. May A-5 reenter without “sitting a tick” to replace injured A-1 fulfilling the “five players participating” requirement, or is A-5 not “available” because he must “sit a tick”?

Does the “must play with five” rule ever “trump” the “must sit a tick” rule?

I seem to remember our local interpreter, many, many years ago, telling us that in a few specific cases the “must play with five” rule “trumps” the “must sit a tick” rule, but I’m getting to the age where I can’t even remember what I had for breakfast this morning.

Now, where are my car keys?

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Sit 1) Of course they are not FORCED to take a TO and the case play comes no where close to implying that. The team can always request a TO (with the appropriate penalty).

Sit 2) There's a case / interp where A5 can return in this specific instance.

Has everyone forgotten "my" most favorite NFHS Casebook Play and it's RULING: 8.2 Situation B:

"A1 is fouled and will be shooting two free throws. After A1's first free-throw attempt, B6 (Team B's only remaining eligible substitute) replaces B2. A1's second free-throw attempt is unsuccessful. During rebounding action for A1's missed second free-throw attempt, and before the clock starts, A1 pushes B3 in the back causing B3 to roll an ankle. Team B is in the bonus. B3 is unable to immediately continue playing. Team B requests and is granted a time out in order to allow B3 to recover from the ankle injury so as to remain in the game. B3 is still not able to play after the time out has ended.

RULING: B2 may return to the game and replace B3 and shoot B3's free throw attempts despite having been replaced since he/she is the only available substitute. (R3-S3-A4, R2-S3)"

When I authored this CB Play and it's Ruling I used R3-S3-A4, but not R2-S3. For some unknown reason Mary Struckhoff (NFHS Basketball Rules Editor at the time) chose to add R2-S3 without consulting me. Had she asked I would have told her not to add it.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Has everyone forgotten "my" most favorite NFHS Casebook Play and it's RULING: 8.2 Situation B ...

8.2 SITUATION B: A1 is fouled and will be shooting two free throws. After A1’s
first free-throw attempt, B6 (Team B’s only remaining eligible substitute) replaces
B2. A1’s second free-throw attempt is unsuccessful. During rebounding action for
A1’s missed second free-throw attempt, and before the clock starts, A1 pushes B3
in the back causing B3 to roll an ankle. Team B is in the bonus. B3 is unable to
immediately continue playing. Team B requests and is granted a time out in order
to allow B3 to recover from the ankle injury so as to remain in the game. B3 is still
not able to play after the time out has ended. RULING: B2 may return to the game
and replace B3 and shoot B3’s free throw attempts despite having been replaced
since he/she is the only available substitute. (3-3-4)

3-3-4: A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game shall
not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been
started properly following his/her replacement.

2-3: The referee shall make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the
rules.

3-4-6: A player who has been injured to the extent that the coach or any
other bench personnel is beckoned and/or comes onto the court shall be directed
to leave the game, unless a time-out is requested by, and granted to, his/her team
and the situation can be corrected by the end of the time-out.

2-3: The referee shall make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the
rules.

3-1-1: Each team consists of five players, one of whom is the captain.
NOTE: A team must begin the game with five players, but if it has no substitutes to
replace disqualified or injured players, it must continue with fewer than five. When there
is only one player participating for a team, the team shall forfeit the game, unless the
referee believes that team has an opportunity to win the game.

3.1.1 SITUATION: After six players have been disqualified, Team A has only
four who are eligible to continue in the game as players. In a gesture of fair play,
the coach of Team B indicates a desire to withdraw a player so that each team will
have four players on the court. RULING: This is not permissible. Team B must
have five players participating as long as it has that number available. If no substitute
is available, a team must continue with fewer than five players. When only
one player remains to participate, that team shall forfeit the game unless the referee
believes this team still has an opportunity to win the game.

Thanks Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

So it appears that in rare cases a player who has been replaced (and who hasn't been injured) doesn't have to sit a tick and may reenter the game, and the coach isn't required to "burn" a timeout.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

[I]8.2 SITUATION B: A1 is fouled and will be shooting two free throws. After A1’s
first free-throw attempt, B6 (Team B’s only remaining eligible substitute) replaces
B2. A1’s second free-throw attempt is unsuccessful. During rebounding action for
A1’s missed second free-throw attempt, and before the clock starts, A1 pushes B3
in the back causing B3 to roll an ankle. Team B is in the bonus. B3 is unable to
immediately continue playing. Team B requests and is granted a time out in order
to allow B3 to recover from the ankle injury so as to remain in the game. B3 is still
not able to play after the time out has ended. RULING: B2 may return to the game
and replace B3 and shoot B3’s free throw attempts despite having been replaced
since he/she is the only available substitute. (3-3-4)

Here's a little twist. Due to injuries, illness, disqualifications, etc., there are no remaining available Team B substitutes, only the five players on the court remain, and B-3 is seriously hurt and can't shoot his free throw. With no substitutes of any type available, of the remaining four Team B players on the court, who shoots B-3's free throw, and who selects said free throw shooter?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Here's a little twist. Due to injuries, illness, disqualifications, etc., there are no remaining available Team B substitutes, only the five players on the court remain, and B-3 is seriously hurt and can't shoot his free throw. With no substitutes of any type available, of the remaining four Team B players on the court, who shoots B-3's free throw, and who selects said free throw shooter?

NFHS: Anyone of the remaining Team B Players and Team B chooses who attempts the FTs.

NCAA Men's: Team A Head Coach chooses, !

NCAA Women's and FIBA: I am sure because I do not have either set of Rules in front of me.

NBA/WNBA: This situation cannot happen because a Team must have five players on the court even if the Player utilized has already fouled out of the game. There are special rules if this Player subsequently commits foul(s) after reentering the game.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

This below is what led me to start this thread:

2018-19 IAABO Refresher Exam

41) Team A has no timeouts remaining and has only five players and no substitutes. A-2 appears to be injured and the coach enters the court to attend to A-2. A-2 is OK. The official informs the coach that A-2 must stay in the game and charges Team A with an excess timeout. Is the official correct? Answer: Yes.

This states that the injured player must stay in the game, that the team cannot play with only four players, forces the coach to take an excess timeout, and forces the team to be charged with technical foul for the excess timeout.

It sounded fishy to me.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

2018-19 IAABO Refresher Exam #41 Team A has no timeouts remaining and has only five players and no substitutes. A-2 appears to be injured and the coach enters the court to attend to A-2. A-2 is OK. The official informs the coach that A-2 must stay in the game and charges Team A with an excess timeout. Is the official correct? Answer: Yes.

I went right to the top and contacted one of the IAABO Co-Coordinators of Interpreters. He, and the other three Co-Coordinators of Interpreters, agree with me and the answer key has been changed to a resounding "No". In fact, it was changed before I complained about it, it appears that somebody beat me to the punch.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

NFHS:

NCAA Men's: Team A Head Coach chooses, !

MTD, Sr.

This statement is not always accurate for NCAA-M

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by johnny d

This statement is not always accurate for NCAA-M

I retired from officiating men's and women's college basketball in 2008, so I am not always up-to-date. Feel free to correct me.

MTD, Sr.