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Old Fri Oct 19, 2018, 09:41am
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A screen by any other name.

As i progress and earn more and more high level games. Screening and officiating there of seems to be becoming more art than science and an important part of my pregame and communication with my partners.

When we set a ball screen there is clearly going to one officials eyes on that screen and action. With off ball screens depending on whether you are two man or three man there may or may not be one focused set of eyes locked into that screening action.

When it looks like a screen and is set traditionally we seem to be able to get some consistent application. My question is in regards to other "screens". I box out is technically a screen, a post up is technically a screen. While we understand that post ups and reboudning get their own freedoms and range of movements when cross over happens I'm not sure what to apply consistently. Similar to when offense brushes by cutters but then turns it into a screen by stopping once contact is happening or dribble hand offs where players keep moving or washing out once d switches because they pitch the now the offense is just cutting and being bumped by their new cutter. Screens that are and aren't screens

Example:

If two kids are actively jostling for post position within realm of not rough play - no hands/elbows, no shoving, just jockeying for angle or position with footwork (does this ever happen?). Then generally we aren't going to have a foul.

If team A is in zone and the interior player on B chooses to seal and jockey a bottom player who is guarding space not them but when the ball is reversed that player gets sealed and get to their next assignment or rotation quickly Then clearly they haven't been given time and space and even if the initial post up is ok the footwork and jockeying for angles or movement that is keeping the player sealed/occupied is clearly acting like a moving screen.

So with sealing of defenders off ball (post ups, box outs, etc) how much latitude do you give the offense based on the what the defense is trying to do. If the defense is clearly competing for the same intent and nothing undowell is happening play on? If the defense is clearly not interested in competing for the same purpose (they are not trying to rebound but get to a transition spot or they are trying to get a spot or new player not a guard the post up) does the same action and level of contact become a foul.

This isn't a huge concern as generally I feel its an I know it when I see sort of deal and the more i see it the easier it gets. Just wondering how people see and deal with these situations.
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Old Fri Oct 19, 2018, 10:20am
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Quote:
Then clearly they haven't been given time and space
Why would they need to give the defender this? Doesn't sound like you're describing a "blind screen" at all....

As far how much movement you allow in a post-up vs a screen in this situation, in application, it depends on whether the defender being screen is attempting to guard the screener/poster-upper or if they're trying to switch to another player and being prevented from doing so. In the latter play, I would allow much less movement or jostling.
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Old Fri Oct 19, 2018, 10:36am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post
Just wondering how people see and deal with these situations.
By not thinking so much.

Look for holding and / or displacement and call that.
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Old Fri Oct 19, 2018, 10:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MechanicGuy View Post
Why would they need to give the defender this? Doesn't sound like you're describing a "blind screen" at all....
Unless the defender is stationary, then when offense sets a screen they still must allow time and space for the defense to avoid being contacted by the screen.

Maybe this is a language difference between NFHS and FIBA

Illegal screening is when the player who is screening an opponent:
 Was moving when contact occurred.
 Did not give sufficient distance in setting a screen outside the field of vision of a
stationary opponent when contact occurred.
 Did not respect the elements of time and distance of an opponent in motion when
contact occurred.


If the screen is set within the field of vision of a stationary opponent (front or lateral), the screener may establish the screen as close to him as he wishes, provided there
is no contact.

If the screen is set outside the field of vision of a stationary opponent, the screener must permit the opponent to take 1 normal step towards the screen without making contact.

If the opponent is in motion, the elements of time and distance shall apply. The screener must leave enough space so that the player who is being screened is able to avoid the screen by stopping or changing direction.

The distance required is never less than 1 and never more than 2 normal steps.

A player who is legally screened is responsible for any contact with the player who has set the screen.
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Old Fri Oct 19, 2018, 10:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
by not thinking so much.

Look for holding and / or displacement and call that.
+1
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Old Fri Oct 19, 2018, 03:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post
Unless the defender is stationary, then when offense sets a screen they still must allow time and space for the defense to avoid being contacted by the screen.
The only time there needs to be any significant time and space is when the defender is running towards the point of the screen. If they're posting up, they're not moving fast enough to need more than a couple of inches....or the screen was already in the path and legal.
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Old Sat Oct 20, 2018, 04:27pm
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regardless of how fast minimum distance is still 1 step to ensure player can avoid screen if they are aware and choose to. Even if moving slowly box outs/post ups donít give the defender the option or opportunity.
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Old Sun Oct 21, 2018, 03:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post
regardless of how fast minimum distance is still 1 step to ensure player can avoid screen if they are aware and choose to. Even if moving slowly box outs/post ups donít give the defender the option or opportunity.
I'd like to know where you got that. The only place I've seen a 1 step requirement is on a blind screen.
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Old Sun Oct 21, 2018, 09:10am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I'd like to know where you got that. The only place I've seen a 1 step requirement is on a blind screen.
Maybe be a difference in NFHS and FIBA language:

Illegal screening is when the player who is screening an opponent:
 Was moving when contact occurred.
 Did not give sufficient distance in setting a screen outside the field of vision of a
stationary opponent when contact occurred.
 Did not respect the elements of time and distance of an opponent in motion when
contact occurred.

If the screen is set within the field of vision of a stationary opponent (front or lateral), the screener may establish the screen as close to him as he wishes, provided there
is no contact.

If the screen is set outside the field of vision of a stationary opponent, the screener must permit the opponent to take 1 normal step towards the screen without making contact.

If the opponent is in motion, the elements of time and distance shall apply. The screener must leave enough space so that the player who is being screened is able to avoid the screen by stopping or changing direction.

The distance required is never less than 1 and never more than 2 normal steps.

A player who is legally screened is responsible for any contact with the player who has set the screen.
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Coach: Hey ref I'll make sure you can get out of here right after the game!

Me: Thanks, but why the big rush.

Coach: Oh I thought you must have a big date . . .we're not the only ones your planning on F$%&ing tonite are we!
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Old Sun Oct 21, 2018, 10:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post

The distance required is never less than 1 and never more than 2 normal steps.
Different language....

Quote:
The position will vary and may be one to two normal steps or strides from the opponent.
I don't read that as an absolute minimum, particularly if the players are posting up or boxing out as you asked about in the OP. The distance requirement is, as far as I'm concerned, just not applicable to those situations.
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Old Mon Oct 22, 2018, 08:27am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Different language....



I don't read that as an absolute minimum, particularly if the players are posting up or boxing out as you asked about in the OP. The distance requirement is, as far as I'm concerned, just not applicable to those situations.
So what language other than "never less than" could we be using to make it a more absolute minimum?

Kidding aside we had one of our preseason meetings yesterday and talked about this. Reality we decided, is we have to judge intent a little bit here. If the impeded player is clearly not trying to engage with player boxing out or posting up & is trying to get somewhere else then we need to call screens that are holding/displacing/moving. If they are clearly competing in a physical matchup with that player and the play just results in it acting like a screen we probably aren't going to put air on that.

Also most of our varsity games here are still 2 man so a lot of this is moot as if often happens off ball at times where other things may take priority.
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