Slow Boat To China ...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

If your goal is really to engage newer officials into understanding the rules, then post the rule or something related to the rule.

My goal, obviously a failure, was to start a discussion regarding NBA travel rules compared to NFHS travel rules to those who know the differences, which would probably not be aimed at just new officials, but all officials.

Harden's move being legal, or illegal, made quite a splash on the interent's social media, so I figured it would make the same splash here on the Forum, and again, I was wrong.

I can tell you why this move is illegal by NFHS rules, but I can't even begin to tell you why its legal by NBA rules. bob jenkins confirmed it's NBA legal, maybe someone else can tell us why it's legal. Something about two steps?

[JRutledge]

I am also confused completely by the title or what is the goal of the posting of this. NBA rules are different than amateur rules. Similar to the NFL compared to the NF or NCAA. Not sure why people get up in arms about this difference. But it would help if we actually knew what the rule was that applied either in the title or what we are to comment about. But that it sometimes is too much to ask of some.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am also confused completely by the title or what is the goal of the posting of this ... if we actually knew what the rule was that applied

I've already fallen on my sword for not realizing the important difference between thread title and a post title. I seldom start a thread, I usually reply to the threads of others. I doubt that many read my post titles.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Seriously. I forgot that a thread title is much more important than a post title (that many seldom read). Thread titles are on the Forum for many days. Sorry.

In followup posts, I've made my (failed) goal very clear.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Just wanted to spark a discussion among the curious. I obviously failed miserably.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

My goal, obviously a failure, was to start a discussion regarding NBA travel rules compared to NFHS travel rules to those who know the differences ... Harden's move being legal, or illegal, made quite a splash on the interent's social media, so I figured it would make the same splash here on the Forum, and again, I was wrong. I can tell you why this move is illegal by NFHS rules, but I can't even begin to tell you why its legal by NBA rules. bob jenkins confirmed it's NBA legal, maybe someone else can tell us why it's legal. Something about two steps?

Again, I don't know the NBA rule, so I couldn't include it I any of my posts. I could probably find it on the internet, but I figured (maybe incorrectly) that a few Forum members (with a wealth of knowledge) with a passing interest in NBA rules could provide that information.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

bob jenkins confirmed it's NBA legal,

No, I didn't. I merely said it's illegal in FED and NCAA. And, that the NBA travel rule is different.

No comment on whether that "difference" would make it legal in NBA -- but since the NBA posted IN THE VERY SAME ARTICLE that it was legal, I believe them.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

No, I didn't. I merely said it's illegal in FED and NCAA. And, that the NBA travel rule is different. No comment on whether that "difference" would make it legal in NBA -- but since the NBA posted IN THE VERY SAME ARTICLE that it was legal, I believe them.

Sorry, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I also believe them, I just wanted to find out why it's legal. Two steps?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Sorry, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I also believe them, I just wanted to find out why it's legal. Two steps?

Didn't the article mention something about "2 steps"?

Are you trying to confuse our more inexperienced officials by having them focus on NBA rules instead of what makes this illegal at the NFHS level?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Didn't the article mention something about "2 steps"?

Yes, so what about two steps? That's it, that's the whole rule? Curious minds may want to know. Human curiosity in humans has been scientifically correlated to human intelligence.

I am not the first Forum member to mention rules sets other than NFHS, nor will I be the last. I'm sure that some inexperienced officials watch NBA games, with announcers accurately, or inaccurately, describing NBA rules.

But to be on the safe side, for inexperienced officials (especially now when many associations hold their new officials training sessions), here's a short version of NFHS traveling rules:

The traveling rule is one of the most misunderstood rules in basketball. To start a dribble, the ball must be released before the pivot foot is lifted. On a pass, or a shot, the pivot foot may be lifted, but may not return to the floor before the ball is released. A player may slide on the floor while trying to secure a loose ball until that player’s momentum stops. At that point that player cannot attempt to get up, or rollover. A player securing a ball while on the floor cannot attempt to stand up unless that player starts a dribble. A player in this situation may also pass, shoot, or request a timeout. If the player is flat on his, or her, back, that player may sit up without violating.

A player must be holding the ball (with one very rare exception) in order to travel. A player can't travel while dribbling, while tapping the ball, while fumbling it, or while trying to recover a loose ball. During a fumble the player is not in control of the ball, and therefore, cannot be called for a traveling violation. A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball is unintentionally dropped, or slips from a player’s grasp. After a player has ended a dribble and fumbled the ball, that player may recover the ball without violating. Any steps taken during the recovery of a fumble are not traveling, regardless of how far the ball goes, and the amount of advantage that is gained. It is always legal to recover a fumble, even at the end of a dribble, however that player cannot begin a new dribble, which would be an illegal dribble violation. A player who fumbles the ball when receiving a pass may legally start a dribble

Inexperienced officials please note that there is not a single reference in the NFHS travel rule to the number of steps taken. Not one and a half. Not two. Don't count. Identify the pivot foot. Keep your eye on the pivot foot and understand the legal limitations of moving the pivot foot.

The NCAA may be the same (I'm not an NCAA official). FIBA may, or may not, be the same (probably not the same, I saw some odd called, and uncalled, travels when my daughter played in Spain). The NBA is different.

Originally Posted by Raymond

... what makes this illegal at the NFHS level?

Harden's move would be illegal in a NFHS game because he lifted is pivot foot and put it back on the floor before he released the shot. Why legal in the NBA? Not sure, but it has something to do with two steps.

With the exception of fully explaining the NBA travel rule, I have now fulfilled one of my goals from this thread, noting the differences between the two rule sets.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

...

Harden's move would be illegal in a NFHS game because he lifted is pivot foot and put it back on the floor before he released the shot. Why legal in the NBA. Not sure, but it has something to do with two steps.

That's all that is important, and could have saved a few unnecessary posts if stated in your initial post.


You always mention that you don't work NCAA. Hopefully folks who work NCAA know the rule in regards to lifting and replacing the pivot foot (it the same as the NFHS rule). Maybe that's why folks aren't discussing this play here in the forum, because it is an obvious travel for the rule sets all the forum members work (save maybe the FIBA officials). Inquiring minds don't want to know why it's not a travel in the NBA, YOU want to know. And instead of just simply asking (or looking it up on the internet), you throw all this other stuff at us. Give folks credit in that they will ask on their own if they need/want to know something about a rule outside of their normal rule set.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

... for the rule sets all the forum members work...

I wouldn't bet my house, but I would bet a fairly large amount of money that this won't be the last Forum post that mentions NBA rules.

Well, maybe not a fairly large amount of money. I just retired from my day job as a chemist and I'm on a "fixed income" now.

I'll bet a buck.

Baby needs a new pair of shoes.

[Pantherdreams]

At the moment he ends his dribble (catches the ball on the move) the next foot (or feet if both are on the ground) counts a a "zero" step. Next step is the pivot foot, next step is the 2nd of your "2 steps".

NBA and FIBA both have adaptations of this rule because it:
A) Increases opportunity for dynamic plays
B) Decreases the stress and risk for injury associated with quicker/harder stops for high level athletes moving and very high rates.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

At the moment he ends his dribble (catches the ball on the move) the next foot (or feet if both are on the ground) counts a a "zero" step. Next step is the pivot foot, next step is the 2nd of your "2 steps". NBA and FIBA both have adaptations of this rule ...

Thanks Pantherdreams. That's exactly what I was looking for (granted, in a roundabout way).

Also explains the odd travel no calls that I observed when my daughter played in a youth tournament in Spain.

[justacoach]

[QUOTE=Pantherdreams;1025262]At the moment he ends his dribble (catches the ball on the move) the next foot (or feet if both are on the ground) counts a a "zero" step. Next step is the pivot foot, next step is the 2nd of your "2 steps".

NBA and FIBA both have adaptations of this rule because it:
A) Increases opportunity for dynamic plays
B) Decreases the stress and risk for injury associated with quicker/harder stops for high level athletes moving and very high rOTE]

FWIW, my 2 resident NBA rules practitioners quickly referenced the "zero" step and would not have a whistle for travelling on this play.

They confirmed the foot movements involved in this play warrant a whistle in HS game.