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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 11, 2018, 10:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
No, I didn't. I merely said it's illegal in FED and NCAA. And, that the NBA travel rule is different. No comment on whether that "difference" would make it legal in NBA -- but since the NBA posted IN THE VERY SAME ARTICLE that it was legal, I believe them.
Sorry, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I also believe them, I just wanted to find out why it's legal. Two steps?
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 11, 2018, 01:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Sorry, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I also believe them, I just wanted to find out why it's legal. Two steps?
Didn't the article mention something about "2 steps"?

Are you trying to confuse our more inexperienced officials by having them focus on NBA rules instead of what makes this illegal at the NFHS level?
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 11, 2018, 03:47pm
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Number Of Steps, No Way ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Didn't the article mention something about "2 steps"?
Yes, so what about two steps? That's it, that's the whole rule? Curious minds may want to know. Human curiosity in humans has been scientifically correlated to human intelligence.

I am not the first Forum member to mention rules sets other than NFHS, nor will I be the last. I'm sure that some inexperienced officials watch NBA games, with announcers accurately, or inaccurately, describing NBA rules.

But to be on the safe side, for inexperienced officials (especially now when many associations hold their new officials training sessions), here's a short version of NFHS traveling rules:

The traveling rule is one of the most misunderstood rules in basketball. To start a dribble, the ball must be released before the pivot foot is lifted. On a pass, or a shot, the pivot foot may be lifted, but may not return to the floor before the ball is released. A player may slide on the floor while trying to secure a loose ball until that player’s momentum stops. At that point that player cannot attempt to get up, or rollover. A player securing a ball while on the floor cannot attempt to stand up unless that player starts a dribble. A player in this situation may also pass, shoot, or request a timeout. If the player is flat on his, or her, back, that player may sit up without violating.

A player must be holding the ball (with one very rare exception) in order to travel. A player can't travel while dribbling, while tapping the ball, while fumbling it, or while trying to recover a loose ball. During a fumble the player is not in control of the ball, and therefore, cannot be called for a traveling violation. A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball is unintentionally dropped, or slips from a player’s grasp. After a player has ended a dribble and fumbled the ball, that player may recover the ball without violating. Any steps taken during the recovery of a fumble are not traveling, regardless of how far the ball goes, and the amount of advantage that is gained. It is always legal to recover a fumble, even at the end of a dribble, however that player cannot begin a new dribble, which would be an illegal dribble violation. A player who fumbles the ball when receiving a pass may legally start a dribble

Inexperienced officials please note that there is not a single reference in the NFHS travel rule to the number of steps taken. Not one and a half. Not two. Don't count. Identify the pivot foot. Keep your eye on the pivot foot and understand the legal limitations of moving the pivot foot.

The NCAA may be the same (I'm not an NCAA official). FIBA may, or may not, be the same (probably not the same, I saw some odd called, and uncalled, travels when my daughter played in Spain). The NBA is different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
... what makes this illegal at the NFHS level?
Harden's move would be illegal in a NFHS game because he lifted is pivot foot and put it back on the floor before he released the shot. Why legal in the NBA? Not sure, but it has something to do with two steps.

With the exception of fully explaining the NBA travel rule, I have now fulfilled one of my goals from this thread, noting the differences between the two rule sets.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 04:20pm.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 11, 2018, 03:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
...

Harden's move would be illegal in a NFHS game because he lifted is pivot foot and put it back on the floor before he released the shot. Why legal in the NBA. Not sure, but it has something to do with two steps.
That's all that is important, and could have saved a few unnecessary posts if stated in your initial post.


You always mention that you don't work NCAA. Hopefully folks who work NCAA know the rule in regards to lifting and replacing the pivot foot (it the same as the NFHS rule). Maybe that's why folks aren't discussing this play here in the forum, because it is an obvious travel for the rule sets all the forum members work (save maybe the FIBA officials). Inquiring minds don't want to know why it's not a travel in the NBA, YOU want to know. And instead of just simply asking (or looking it up on the internet), you throw all this other stuff at us. Give folks credit in that they will ask on their own if they need/want to know something about a rule outside of their normal rule set.
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Last edited by Raymond; Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 04:01pm.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 11, 2018, 04:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
... for the rule sets all the forum members work...
I wouldn't bet my house, but I would bet a fairly large amount of money that this won't be the last Forum post that mentions NBA rules.

Well, maybe not a fairly large amount of money. I just retired from my day job as a chemist and I'm on a "fixed income" now.

I'll bet a buck.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 04:19pm.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 12, 2018, 06:51am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
We have a few Forum members who are familiar with the differences between NBA, WNBA, FIBA, NCAA-M, NCAA-W, and NFHS rules, I am not one of them, and seek explanations from those that know and possibly understand the differences.
In the NBA - Not a travel
In the NCAA - Travel
In NFHS - Travel
In FiBA - Not a travel
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 12, 2018, 06:56am
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At the moment he ends his dribble (catches the ball on the move) the next foot (or feet if both are on the ground) counts a a "zero" step. Next step is the pivot foot, next step is the 2nd of your "2 steps".

NBA and FIBA both have adaptations of this rule because it:
A) Increases opportunity for dynamic plays
B) Decreases the stress and risk for injury associated with quicker/harder stops for high level athletes moving and very high rates.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 12, 2018, 08:55am
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Zero Step ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post
At the moment he ends his dribble (catches the ball on the move) the next foot (or feet if both are on the ground) counts a a "zero" step. Next step is the pivot foot, next step is the 2nd of your "2 steps". NBA and FIBA both have adaptations of this rule ...
Thanks Pantherdreams. That's exactly what I was looking for (granted, in a roundabout way).

Also explains the odd travel no calls that I observed when my daughter played in a youth tournament in Spain.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Sat Oct 13, 2018, 04:55pm
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Officials know it is illegal for NFHS/NCAA/FIBA/"X" organization because they have seen/read the rule. If you want to know why it is legal in the NBA, just go read the rule. The NBA rules are online in many places.

Many people talk about the "possible" travel portion of the play. Many think it should be traveling but not one person, not even on this forum, mentioned the "possible" palming/carrying violations. I counted 2 of them. On the forum some say it would be traveling but no one said it would be palming/carrying, or even "traveling" to some, while he was dribbling.
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Last edited by bucky; Sat Oct 13, 2018 at 05:05pm.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Sat Oct 13, 2018, 06:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
... not one person, not even on this forum, mentioned the "possible" palming/carrying violations. I counted 2 of them ...
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Oct 13, 2018 at 06:26pm.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Sat Oct 13, 2018, 07:19pm
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Classic BM, just classic.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Sun Oct 14, 2018, 12:27am
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[QUOTE=Pantherdreams;1025262]At the moment he ends his dribble (catches the ball on the move) the next foot (or feet if both are on the ground) counts a a "zero" step. Next step is the pivot foot, next step is the 2nd of your "2 steps".

NBA and FIBA both have adaptations of this rule because it:
A) Increases opportunity for dynamic plays
B) Decreases the stress and risk for injury associated with quicker/harder stops for high level athletes moving and very high rOTE]

FWIW, my 2 resident NBA rules practitioners quickly referenced the "zero" step and would not have a whistle for travelling on this play.

They confirmed the foot movements involved in this play warrant a whistle in HS game.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Sun Oct 14, 2018, 10:32am
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I think the NBA rule is worded differently, but with same result. Might be wrong, but if so, someone explain specifically what it allows that NCAA rules don't?

The NBA description of this rule is consistent with what I see, it isn't a travel in lower levels either if you give benefit of the doubt on when the gather happens here. he's taking the ball from his left hand to his right as he's in the air, and gathers while in the air, then lands once with each foot. And that's the NBA's interpretation. How would that be a travel at lower levels? Remember, the gather should be, and is in practical terms in NCAA, a loose interpretation whether it is a spin move, layup, Euro step, or this move. They want the gather at higher levels to be judged loosely.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Sun Oct 14, 2018, 11:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
I think the NBA rule is worded differently, but with same result. Might be wrong, but if so, someone explain specifically what it allows that NCAA rules don't?

The NBA description of this rule is consistent with what I see, it isn't a travel in lower levels either if you give benefit of the doubt on when the gather happens here. he's taking the ball from his left hand to his right as he's in the air, and gathers while in the air, then lands once with each foot. And that's the NBA's interpretation. How would that be a travel at lower levels? Remember, the gather should be, and is in practical terms in NCAA, a loose interpretation whether it is a spin move, layup, Euro step, or this move. They want the gather at higher levels to be judged loosely.
He gathers with his right foot on the ground and his left foot in the air, making his right foot the pivot foot. He puts his right foot back down before shooting.

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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Sun Oct 14, 2018, 11:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedewed View Post
I think the NBA rule is worded differently, but with same result. Might be wrong, but if so, someone explain specifically what it allows that NCAA rules don't?

The NBA description of this rule is consistent with what I see, it isn't a travel in lower levels either if you give benefit of the doubt on when the gather happens here. he's taking the ball from his left hand to his right as he's in the air, and gathers while in the air, then lands once with each foot. And that's the NBA's interpretation. How would that be a travel at lower levels? Remember, the gather should be, and is in practical terms in NCAA, a loose interpretation whether it is a spin move, layup, Euro step, or this move. They want the gather at higher levels to be judged loosely.
Of course, there is no gather defined, but only the ball coming to rest in ONE or both hands. The pivot foot is established when the ball is in his left hand, not when or after he shifts it to his right. If that were not the case, a player could continually shift the ball back and forth and never have a pivot foot.
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