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Old Fri Sep 21, 2018, 10:34am
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fake to cause an opponent to violate.

I only have an old rule book in front of me so maybe the wording has changed.

nor shall any player in a marked lane space fake to cause an opponent to violate.

Do that mean that faking is a violation even if the opponent doesn't violate or does the opponent actually have to violate for the fake to be illegal?
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Old Fri Sep 21, 2018, 10:49am
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Faking ...

In some cases it may depend on which team does the faking, the shooting team, or the opponents of the shooting team.

9:1: The free thrower shall not fake a try, nor shall any player in a marked lane
space fake to cause an opponent to violate … If a fake by an opponent causes the
free thrower or a teammate of the free thrower to violate, only the fake is penalized.

9.1.3 SITUATION A: A1, at the free throw line to attempt a final free throw, fakes
the release of the ball. RULING: A violation by A1, Team B will be awarded a
throw-in at the nearest spot. COMMENT: The faking of a free throw try is a violation.
However, if A1 does not feel comfortable after starting his/her motion and
stops to adjust, the players in the lane spaces are expected to hold their positions.
(9-1-3b)

9.1.3 SITUATION B: ... A1’s free-throw ... (a) B1; or (b) A2, in a marked lane space,
fakes by rocking forward causing an opponent to enter the lane prematurely.
RULING: In (a), the official will use the proper signal indicating a violation by B1 and a
substitute free throw is awarded if A1’s attempt is unsuccessful. If it is successful, the
violation is ignored. In (b), the official will sound his/her whistle immediately when A2 violates.
The violation cancels A1’s attempt and it is B’s ball for a throw-in, unless an additional free
throw(s) is involved. COMMENT: If a player uses verbal tactics like “you’re in my
space” or a time-out request to fake an opponent into violations, only the fake is
penalized. (9-1-3b Penalty 1, 4d)

9.1.3 SITUATION C: A1 is preparing to attempt a free throw. Prior to A1’s
release of the ball, B1 fakes causing A2 to enter the lane prematurely. A1 then
requests and is granted a time-out. RULING: Upon resuming play, A1 is entitled
to a free throw and the official shall use the proper signal indicating a violation by
B1 prior to the granting of the time-out. If the free throw is successful, the violation
is ignored, if unsuccessful a substitute throw is awarded. (9-1-3b)
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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Sep 21, 2018 at 10:58am.
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Old Fri Sep 21, 2018, 11:27am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
In some cases it may depend on which team does the faking, the shooting team, or the opponents of the shooting team.

9:1: The free thrower shall not fake a try, nor shall any player in a marked lane
space fake to cause an opponent to violate If a fake by an opponent causes the
free thrower or a teammate of the free thrower to violate, only the fake is penalized.

9.1.3 SITUATION A: A1, at the free throw line to attempt a final free throw, fakes
the release of the ball. RULING: A violation by A1, Team B will be awarded a
throw-in at the nearest spot. COMMENT: The faking of a free throw try is a violation.
However, if A1 does not feel comfortable after starting his/her motion and
stops to adjust, the players in the lane spaces are expected to hold their positions.
(9-1-3b)

9.1.3 SITUATION B: ... A1s free-throw ... (a) B1; or (b) A2, in a marked lane space,
fakes by rocking forward causing an opponent to enter the lane prematurely.
RULING: In (a), the official will use the proper signal indicating a violation by B1 and a
substitute free throw is awarded if A1s attempt is unsuccessful. If it is successful, the
violation is ignored. In (b), the official will sound his/her whistle immediately when A2 violates.
The violation cancels A1s attempt and it is Bs ball for a throw-in, unless an additional free
throw(s) is involved. COMMENT: If a player uses verbal tactics like youre in my
space or a time-out request to fake an opponent into violations, only the fake is
penalized. (9-1-3b Penalty 1, 4d)

9.1.3 SITUATION C: A1 is preparing to attempt a free throw. Prior to A1s
release of the ball, B1 fakes causing A2 to enter the lane prematurely. A1 then
requests and is granted a time-out. RULING: Upon resuming play, A1 is entitled
to a free throw and the official shall use the proper signal indicating a violation by
B1 prior to the granting of the time-out. If the free throw is successful, the violation
is ignored, if unsuccessful a substitute throw is awarded. (9-1-3b)

I have always believed (in my humble opinion) that this Rule, when adopted, was one of the stupidest rules ever, and I still believe that.

All of the Players know the Rule as to when they can enter the FT Lane, and if a Player can be tricked into going in too soon, then shame on him/her.

MTD, Sr.
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Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
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Toledo, Ohio
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Old Fri Sep 21, 2018, 01:22pm
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Unsporting Violation ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
... if a Player can be tricked into going in too soon, then shame on him/her.
Disagree with the Great and Powerful Oz (it's really Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. behind the curtain).

Some forms of trickery are simply good strategy. Other types of trickery are unsporting, especially, but not limited to, the verbal tactics (“You’re in my
space”), and fall the under the unsporting category, not enough to be a technical foul, but certainly enough to be a violation.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Sep 21, 2018 at 01:25pm.
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Old Fri Sep 21, 2018, 01:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Disagree with the Great and Powerful Oz (it's really Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. behind the curtain).

Some forms of trickery are simply good strategy. Other types of trickery are unsporting, especially, but not limited to, the verbal tactics (“You’re in my
space”), and fall the under the unsporting category, not enough to be a technical foul, but certainly enough to be a violation.


I resemble that remark because my mother was a Kansas farm girl: ROCK CHALK JAY HAWK, KAAAAYYYY UUUUUU!!

But I digress, my comments are confined to this narrow situation. I, as a Player, now that I cannot enter the FT Lane until the Ball is released by the Shooter, and if I enter it before the Shooter releases the Ball because my Opponent next to me fakes going in early then I deserved to be charge with the FT Violation. It is really no different than a Player with the Ball fakes going up to attempt a FG and the fake causes the Defender to jump in to him making illegal contact. Shame on the Defender for being fooled.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. Billy: It is time for my mid-afternoon nap. I will wake up just in time to take my pre-dinner nap, LOL!

P.P.S. I had just woke up from my post lunch nap when I saw this thread. And both my mid-afternoon and pre-dinner naps were very satisfying and now I am watching the Indians play host to the Red Sox.
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Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Toledo, Ohio

Last edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.; Fri Sep 21, 2018 at 07:18pm. Reason: Added P.P.S.
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Old Fri Sep 21, 2018, 01:53pm
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Trickery ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
... if I enter it before the Shooter releases the Ball because my Opponent next to me fakes going in early ...
Unsporting trickery. Violation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
... a Player with the Ball fakes going up to attempt a FG and the fake causes the Defender to jump in to him making illegal contact.
Strategic trickery. Legal.

How about the fake free throw ( la the Harlem Globetrotters) that causes defensive players to violate, giving the free thrower an extra shot if he misses. Should that also be legal?

https://youtu.be/4jqC5UB9nbE

Maybe the NFHS should make this legal also:

https://youtu.be/Wqtv0p8YtTk
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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Sep 21, 2018 at 01:57pm.
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Old Fri Sep 21, 2018, 01:56pm
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Over The Rainbow ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
... my mother was a Kansas farm girl ...
And I bet that she was as pretty as this Kansas farm girl:

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Old Fri Sep 21, 2018, 07:29pm
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The Rule we are discussing was adopted about 20 years ago. I played and officiated H.S. basketball for many years before this Rule was adopted. And when I played the boys'/girls' H.S. and men's college Rule was that no Player could enter the FT Lane until after the FTA had made contact with the Basket Ring.

A Player knew the Rule. And if A1 was at the FT Line and B1 faked A2 into the FT Lane before the Ball it the Basket Ring then shame on A2. I still think the Rule protects A2 from his own poor play.

MTD, Sr.
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Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Toledo, Ohio
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Old Fri Sep 21, 2018, 07:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
And I bet that she was as pretty as this Kansas farm girl:





And, yes she was. She grew up in Tornado Alley in Eastern Kansas. I spent many summers on my maternal grandparents' farm and saw a few tornadoes.

MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Toledo, Ohio
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Old Fri Sep 21, 2018, 10:19pm
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I did not think MTD would take that stance. Indeed, would he then allow shooters to fake? I am doubting it. Also, I wonder if he feels the same way about disconcertion/distraction?

Yelling at an opponent during common play = strategic trickery.

Yelling at a free thrower with purpose of distracting them = unsporting trickery.

He mentioned his comments being directed towards "..this narrow situation." Did he mean specifically that situation or the situation of a FT?

(Respectfully, there is lots of teasing in my post MTD)
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Last edited by bucky; Sun Sep 23, 2018 at 07:56pm.
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Old Fri Sep 21, 2018, 10:35pm
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I'll Get You My Pretty, And Your Little Dog Too

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
I spent many summers on my maternal grandparents' farm and saw a few tornadoes.
During those tornadoes, you didn't happen to see this gal blowing around in the wind, did you?

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