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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 18, 2018, 09:02am
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As it relates to officials not being able to get off work early enough for early start times, that's the schools' problem as far as I am concerned. Eventually they're going to have to spread out their schedules so that games aren't starting before 5:30-6:00. But of course, that would require administrators to work more and more transportation costs and other logistical challenges that schools don't want. But again, tell me why those should be the officials' problems.

No one should sacrifice his/her real job to work subvarsity basketball like so many of these schools seem to think. Not all positions have flexible hours for employees, and that's not going to change just because there's an officials shortage.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 18, 2018, 09:07am
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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
As it relates to officials not being able to get off work early enough for early start times, that's the schools' problem as far as I am concerned. Eventually they're going to have to spread out their schedules so that games aren't starting before 5:30-6:00. But of course, that would require administrators to work more and more transportation costs and other logistical challenges that schools don't want. But again, tell me why those should be the officials' problems.

No one should sacrifice his/her real job to work subvarsity basketball like so many of these schools seem to think. Not all positions have flexible hours for employees, and that's not going to change just because there's an officials shortage.
I totally agree with this. Later times would help in many situations for officials. It is easier for varsity officials when your game is the main focus.

Peace
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 18, 2018, 09:28am
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I totally agree with this. Later times would help in many situations for officials. It is easier for varsity officials when your game is the main focus.

Peace
Me too. And we wonder why we lose so many younger officials before they could possibly work varsity games. First, they often get mistreated at the middle school and subvarsity games that they do work. Second, the games they do work can be as early as 2:30 in the afternoon. This can be a problem for people who have jobs, because not everyone can work a job with flexible hours or use leave time to work early games. Students may be able to work early games, depending on class times, but not those who have real jobs.

If we can support newer officials for at least the first 3 years of their careers, give them training and development opportunities to prepare them for the varsity level (with occasional varsity assignments toward the end of the program), and ensure that games are scheduled at realistic times (not earlier than 4:30 PM for a subvarsity game), then we might see more young officials stay, and avert the shortages. And let's not forget the ladies, y'all. If we can have both men and women in stripes, we might go a long way to solving the problem of having enough officials. EBO is almost 1/5 female (7 women for ~55 officials).
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 18, 2018, 09:36am
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Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Me too. And we wonder why we lose so many younger officials before they could possibly work varsity games. First, they often get mistreated at the middle school and subvarsity games that they do work. Second, the games they do work can be as early as 2:30 in the afternoon. This can be a problem for people who have jobs, because not everyone can work a job with flexible hours or use leave time to work early games. Students may be able to work early games, depending on class times, but not those who have real jobs.
Who the hell is starting games at 2:30 PM on a weekday? That's insane. That's before school lets out in most districts. We rarely have games before 5:30 here, and if we do it's more like 5:00 which is still reasonable. But schools are also only playing 2 games/night more often than not.

And I would never use PTO to work anything lower than an NCAA D1 game; I'd give back the game if I had no other choice. Using PTO for a subvarsity game is unthinkable to me.

Last edited by SC Official; Tue Sep 18, 2018 at 12:35pm. Reason: clarification
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 18, 2018, 09:37am
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Not all subvarsity officials are actually only working subvarsity. Many of the middle school games are done by veterans as they do not mind working those games. Many subvarsity only officials are also not going to work any varsity realistically in their career either. But you can schedule games that make it easier for those to work the games regardless of their position at that time. Unless someone has a flex schedule, works a different shift or in things like sales where you have access to change your schedule, many people are not available for a 4:00 game. And that does not include the people that have other issues with sportsmanship or putting up with the demands of officiating.

Peace
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 18, 2018, 10:28am
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Bye Bye Birdie ...

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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Spoiled kids today. I had to walk to school, no shoes, in my bare feet, in several feet of snow, uphill both ways, wearing only a moth eaten sweater.
I almost forgot one of my favorite quotable song lyrics:

Why can't they be like we were, perfect in every way?
What's the matter with kids today?
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 18, 2018, 10:37am
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First Ever ...

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Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
There is a small group of basketball officials here who started doing volleyball, and they were all working play-offs matches by their 2nd season.
I forgot to mention, my basketball/volleyball guy never played interscholastic, or intercollegiate, volleyball. Just in high school physical education class. The first live interscholastic volleyball game that he ever observed, was the first live interscholastic volleyball game that he officiated, a varsity game, between state ranked schools.

With apologies to George Bernard Shaw, “Those who can play, and those who can’t officiate”.

Just kidding.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Sep 18, 2018 at 12:36pm.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 18, 2018, 10:49am
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My Assigners Favorite official ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Not all subvarsity officials are actually only working subvarsity. Many of the middle school games are done by veterans as they do not mind working those games.
That's me, or it will be me soon. I just retired from my "day job" as a chemist. I've decided to make self available for 3:30 p.m. middle school games, and 4:00 p.m. freshman games. Not a full schedule, just between my varsity games, but enough to help my assigner out, and to work with inexperienced officials as an unofficial mentor/evaluator (I'm a retried teacher, it's in my blood).

Can't ignore this aspect, now that I'm on "fixed income", the extra cash will help a little.

I'm going to be one of my assigners favorite officials. I wonder what he'll get me for Christmas?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Sep 18, 2018 at 11:35am.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 18, 2018, 10:53am
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Baseball games have started as early as 2:30 in my experience. I have had to work a 2:45 private middle school basketball game, and public middle school basketball games in Montgomery County are scheduled to start at 3:15 PM (most usually start around 3:20). However, JV basketball games are at 4 PM (DCIAA) or later, with the varsity game (or games) following at 6:00 or later (MCPS does 5:30/7:15 for the JV/varsity schedule, DC has 4 PM JV/6 PM Girls Varsity/8 PM Boys Varsity. Private schools have Freshman/JV/Varsity with the 1st game starting around 4, or JV/Varsity with the first game at 5/5:30 PM).

Even though most subvarsity officials will never work varsity, I still believe that a valid approach for training would be to treat all officials in training as if they had varsity potential, and then choose the best of those in training to be added to the current varsity staff, with the next tier doing spot varsity assignments as needed. In this way, advancement would become more objective than subjective, because there would be evaluations of officials working, rules exams, practical tests, and other objective criteria to rank officials.

I wouldn't say that varsity officials do not work subvarsity games when available to do so, because their input would be very useful to the newer official that has a subvarsity schedule (I don't know how useful that would be to the veteran subvarsity official (5+ years with no varsity experience)). However, later start times would make sense for working officials, especially if the games are spread over a wide geographic area and travel is required.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 18, 2018, 11:10am
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For Whom The Bell Tolls ...

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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Who the hell is starting games at 2:30 PM on a weekday? That's before school lets out in most districts.
I thought same thing myself until I gave it more thought. In the school system in which I used to teach, the bell for end of the high school day rings at 2:05 p.m. Also, student athletes are often allowed to leave their last class early if they have a early afternoon road game.

Middle schools in my district often try to begin games at 3:15 p.m., when the final bell rings at 2:35 p.m.

No 2:30 p.m. starts, but it not very far fetched. Maybe possible, but highly improbable.

On the other hand, a few school systems here in Connecticut are contemplating the new scientific research (something about hormones and circadian rhythms) that says that teenagers don't function at full brain capacity until later in the morning (the high school in my district begins at 7:35 a.m.) no matter how many hours of sleep they get the night before. The research says to start high school later in the morning, thus ending the day later in the afternoon.

Problems for schools contemplating such a changes include transportation issues (high schoolers are normally picked up first, then the same buses pick up middle schoolers, and finally the same buses pick up elementary students), and the problems with interscholastic sports having to start later, with scheduling problems with other schools that have chosen not to start early, and problems with sunset interfering with spring/autumn outdoor sports that are not played under the lights.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Sep 18, 2018 at 11:37am.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 18, 2018, 11:27am
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Up The Ladder ...

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Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
... we wonder why we lose so many younger officials before they could possibly work varsity games.
Here, in my little corner of Connecticut, we used to have some strict local "years of service" rules regarding moving up the ladder. No matter how good an official was, they had to wait a minimum of seven years to get a full varsity schedule.

One year as an IAABO working "cadet". Three additional years as a subvarsity official. And three additional years as a "split' official, working both subvarsity, and varsity games. After waiting seven years, if one was evaluated as good enough, one would finally get a full varsity schedule in the eighth year.

No more. Our new local system involves observations by trained evaluators, so if one is good enough, one can work varsity games right away.

Now, fewer competent, proficient officials are "dropping out" after waiting for varsity games. It was a good change, a necessary change.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Sep 18, 2018 at 11:38am.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 18, 2018, 11:47am
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Talking

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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Haven't you been reading the thread?

Restaurant gift cards, the be all, and end all answer to all or our problems. They will get rid of warts, and are great for cleaning the white wall tires on your car.

The will even core a apple (with apologies to Ralph Kramden, a.k.a., Jackie Gleason).

https://youtu.be/22oCaiccz3w

Billy:

Today is our (Bonnie Jean, my wonderful, smart, intelligent, and beautiful wife, and me) our 36th wedding anniversary. Please buy me a gift card to Applebee's for us for tonight.

MTD, Sr.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 18, 2018, 11:57am
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Good Luck With That ...

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Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Today is our (Bonnie Jean, my wonderful, smart, intelligent, and beautiful wife, and me) our 36th wedding anniversary. Please buy me a gift card to Applebee's for us for tonight.
Congratulations.



Here you go Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Just print it, cut it out, and bring your better half out to dinner tonight, treat's on me.

True story. I took my daughter, son-in law, and grandson, out to Chili's a few weeks ago because I had a Chili's gift card. My treat (as always). After dinner I gave the waitress the gift card. She came back a few minutes later and said the card didn't work because it was an Outback gift card, for the restaurant across the street.

Now, where are my car keys?
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 18, 2018, 12:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Congratulations.



Here you go Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Just print it, cut it out, and bring your better half out to dinner tonight, treat's on me.

True story. I took my daughter, son-in law, and grandson, out to Chili's a few weeks ago because I had a Chili's gift card. My treat (as always). After dinner I gave the waitress the gift card. She came back a few minutes later and said the card didn't work because it was an Outback gift card, for the restaurant across the street.

Now, where are my car keys?

Billy:

Join the old geezers club, LOL!

You can congratulate me but send your sympathy to Bonnie, 😂.

MTD, Sr.
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Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
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Toledo, Ohio
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 18, 2018, 12:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Even though most subvarsity officials will never work varsity, I still believe that a valid approach for training would be to treat all officials in training as if they had varsity potential, and then choose the best of those in training to be added to the current varsity staff, with the next tier doing spot varsity assignments as needed. In this way, advancement would become more objective than subjective, because there would be evaluations of officials working, rules exams, practical tests, and other objective criteria to rank officials.

I wouldn't say that varsity officials do not work subvarsity games when available to do so, because their input would be very useful to the newer official that has a subvarsity schedule (I don't know how useful that would be to the veteran subvarsity official (5+ years with no varsity experience)). However, later start times would make sense for working officials, especially if the games are spread over a wide geographic area and travel is required.
Advancement is always going to be subjective to a certain extent. The majority of officials think they are better than they are, better than the evaluations they receive indicate. And that includes officials working primarily subvarsity basketball. There's no reason to opine about a Utopia of fairness because there will always be officials who think the deck is stacked against them.

Many varsity officials want nights off when they're not working varsity games. Completely reasonable; most of us have family, pets, jobs, etc. You can't force people to officiate.

Yes, later start times are very helpful, but ultimately it's up to the schools. For multiple reasons they don't want to do this; eventually they will be forced to.
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