What's in your pregame?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

..If you are working with college officials who also do high school, maybe a reminder at the beginning that today is a college game, and mention the key differences between college and HS rules? ...

It's very presumptuous for any official to assume his/her partner needs a reminder about which rule set is being used.

In a HS pre-game, discuss HS mechanics, rules, and signals. In a college pre-game, discuss college mechanics, rules, and signals. If someone is confused or needs clarification they need to ask on their own.

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by Raymond

It's very presumptuous for any official to assume his/her partner needs a reminder about which rule set is being used.

In a HS pre-game, discuss HS mechanics, rules, and signals. In a college pre-game, discuss college mechanics, rules, and signals. If someone is confused or needs clarification they need to ask on their own.

I was being serious about the reminder [/sarcasm]. Maybe I need to overload my posts with emoticons, to assist the humor-challenged .

However, veteran officials who work mostly one game or the other might not be familiar with the aspects of the other game, such as a college official being invited to work a high school playoff game (assuming he works the minimum amount of varsity required in his state to be eligible for playoffs), or a high school official being occasionally called on to do the odd JuCo or DIII game. In that case, a short "OK, we're doing high school/college tonight. Any questions?" might be good to start the discussion. Officials new to the college level might also benefit from a reminder, as well as going over the differences in rules and procedures. However, this would be up to the judgement of the R that day.

[LRZ]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

I was being serious about the reminder [/sarcasm]. Maybe I need to overload my posts with emoticons, to assist the humor-challenged .

You have a tendency to overstate the obvious, so it is no surprise that your attempts at humor and sarcasm often go unrecognized. You also lecture, often in response to comments by officials who began working before you were even born.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

I was being serious about the reminder [/sarcasm]. Maybe I need to overload my posts with emoticons, to assist the humor-challenged .

However, veteran officials who work mostly one game or the other might not be familiar with the aspects of the other game, such as a college official being invited to work a high school playoff game (assuming he works the minimum amount of varsity required in his state to be eligible for playoffs), or a high school official being occasionally called on to do the odd JuCo or DIII game. In that case, a short "OK, we're doing high school/college tonight. Any questions?" might be good to start the discussion. Officials new to the college level might also benefit from a reminder, as well as going over the differences in rules and procedures. However, this would be up to the judgement of the R that day.

So you have worked a college game? How do you know what officials at that level know and you have never worked a game at that level?

Peace

[bucky]

All had some great pre-game advice/ideas. I always add 3 things during my pre-game with new (to working with me) officials.

1. Never, ever, ever, give the ball to a player (IB, FT, etc.) without looking at your partners and the table.................twice.

2. Never, ever, ever, withhold information. ex - If a kid has been warned, tell your partners.

3. Never, ever, ever, begin play with doubt in your head. ex - If you think we should be shooting 2 FT's instead of 1, tell your partners.

[ilyazhito]

Very true on all these points. If you fail to do No. 1, you might miss substitutes waiting at the table, and make the restart VERY awkward. 2 should be obvious. For Number 3, you might look stupid, but doing that is better than embarrassing yourself by making a correctable error, having to go to the table, and correct the error. An ounce of prevention really is worth a pound of cure.

College officials, how do you do pregame if you know that you have "tweeners" (people who do both college and HS) working your games? What I said earlier was a suggestion, but I'm curious as to how it actually plays out in practice.

High school officials, is there any change you make to your pregame if you have a newer varsity official (or two) on your games who may not be as familiar with 3-person or the other finer points that veterans usually take for granted?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

College officials, how do you do pregame if you know that you have "tweeners" (people who do both college and HS) working your games? What I said earlier was a suggestion, but I'm curious as to how it actually plays out in practice.

Unless you are doing a mostly D1 schedule, everyone is a "tweener" for the most part. Small college officials are not usually working so much (at least in my experience) where they work absolutely no high school basketball. There is not enough money or games around for someone to work that much. Almost everyone I work college with has extensive high school experience as well. And we will discuss some differences like the new rules if we are working a Saturday afternoon game and Friday night to remind us of little things or rules that just changed, but not going into every difference. If you do not know those rules, chances are you are not going to be at that level very much longer. It is a waste of time to go over rules differences that much. The game and the teams are more important than knowing what is a basket interference difference which you should already know.

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

High school officials, is there any change you make to your pregame if you have a newer varsity official (or two) on your games who may not be as familiar with 3-person or the other finer points that veterans usually take for granted?

It is rare that I would work with a person that does not know extensively 3 person mechanics. If they are that unfamiliar, they were not getting hired in the first place. Or they are there because of an emergency like pulling up a sophomore official to work the varsity game that happened to be at the same site that night. Otherwise, this is not something to take for granted, it is just how we are assigned. And if you work with a person that is newer, it is on them to either make that known or raise issues they might be struggling with. But it is not going into the pre-game automatically. I am not discussing where we stand or how to rotate, that is just not happening.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

Never, ever, ever, begin play with doubt in your head.

Great advice.

I began a play with a doubt in my mind two seasons ago and it effected a game that should not have gone into overtime, with the offended team losing.

Very late in a close game, my partner called a double free throw violation, that I didn't see. He sounded his whistle, announced a "double violation", and announced the penalty. I could tell by his body language and the sound of his voice that he didn't seem 100% sure, but he was a top notch official and I didn't want to question him. I became the administering official and handed the ball to the team that he had announced.

Immediately after the game I asked him about the call. He explained what he observed, I politely questioned his call, and we both got out our books and looked it up. Sure enough, he got the call wrong, it wasn't a double violation. As soon as we came to this realization, there was a knock on the door, the offended coach, who lost the game in overtime, politely asked about the play. We had to admit that we screwed up, and we apologized. He surprisingly accepted.

I was a bad partner that night. If had questioned my partner at the time, we never would have screwed up.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

I was being serious about the reminder [/sarcasm]. Maybe I need to overload my posts with emoticons, to assist the humor-challenged .

However, veteran officials who work mostly one game or the other might not be familiar with the aspects of the other game, such as a college official being invited to work a high school playoff game (assuming he works the minimum amount of varsity required in his state to be eligible for playoffs), or a high school official being occasionally called on to do the odd JuCo or DIII game. In that case, a short "OK, we're doing high school/college tonight. Any questions?" might be good to start the discussion. Officials new to the college level might also benefit from a reminder, as well as going over the differences in rules and procedures. However, this would be up to the judgement of the R that day.

Unless I'm working with a friend, my partners at either level do not know that I work in the other level. I don't bring up HS when I'm in a college locker room. In my HS locker rooms, I know the HS rules better than 95% of my partners, so even if they know I also work college ball, they have no reason to remind me I'm working a HS game.

Safest bet is again, when at a HS venue, discuss HS officiating. When at a college venue, discuss college officiating. Don't try to get in everybody's head.

Every summer I work a local Pro-Am that uses NBA rules and mechanics. The 2 NBA officials who oversee the officiating (and occasionally work on the court with us) never bring up HS or college rules/mechanics/signals. They talk to us about NBA rules/mechanics/signals. Only reference to HS or college is "do what your are supposed to do at the level you are working that day".

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

... my partners at either level do not know that I work in the other level.

I wish that you worked on my local board. Although not many, I've worked with a few partners over the years that couldn't wait to tell that that they're a college official. Some even warned me and insisted that they can't switch from college interpretations, mechanics, signals, etc., to those of high school.

I have a few friends that I know work college and high school games. It's always me who initiates a discussion along the lines of, "So, did you have any great college games lately?", or, "I've got a question about a college rule that I saw on television a few nights ago". None of my college friends would think to initiate such a discussion on their own.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I wish that you worked on my local board. Although not many, I've worked with a few partners over the years that couldn't wait to tell that that they're a college official. Some even warned me and insisted that they can't switch from college interpretations, mechanics, signals, etc., to those of high school.

What was a way those officials would try to tell you, "I am a college official." I would just laugh, because I have done college for some time and almost never talk about what I do unless asked.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I have a few friends that I know work college and high school games. It's always me who initiates a discussion along the lines of, "So, did you have any great college games lately?", or, "I've got a question about a college rule that I saw on television a few nights ago". None of my college friends would think to initiate such a discussion on their own.

No reason to talk about it unless asked. I might talk about college to other college officials, but not to officials that have never done that level for sure.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

It's very presumptuous for any official to assume his/her partner needs a reminder about which rule set is being used.

Over 90% of our high school level games use NFHS rules. The other 10% involve private prep schools that use an odd set of hybrid NFHS/NCAA rules (sometimes the coaches don't even know the differences). When we work these private prep school games the "Prep School Handout" always comes out (initiated by either me, or my partner) because both of us need reminders about the rules that we're going to use that night.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Over 90% of our high school level games use NFHS rules. The other 10% involve private prep schools that use an odd set of hybrid NFHS/NCAA rules (sometimes the coaches don't even know the differences). When we work these private prep school games the "Prep School Handout" comes out because both of us need reminders about the rules that we're going to use that night.

There's nothing wrong with that. That's appropriate considering the environment in which you work.

But I know quite a few officials who would be offended if somebody were to assume that they didn't know high school rules and need to be reminded of them just because they also work College ball and vice versa.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Over 90% of our high school level games use NFHS rules. The other 10% involve private prep schools that use an odd set of hybrid NFHS/NCAA rules (sometimes the coaches don't even know the differences). When we work these private prep school games the "Prep School Handout" always comes out (initiated by either me, or my partner) because both of us need reminders about the rules that we're going to use that night.

Billy, officials in the DMV are in the same boat. The bigger private school leagues use rules that are a hybrid of NFHS and NCAA (dunking is allowed in warmups, the coaching box rule is copied from college, boys games use the NCAA men's rules on inbound spots, and the shot clock and related rules (backcourt counts and closely guarded counts) follow NCAA rules of the appropriate gender). Public high school games in DC and MD use the shot clock (VA does not), so the related rules (backcourt and closely guarded count) also differ between leagues, and the mercy rules for each league are different. This means that officials must be absolutely sure as to what set of rules they are using that day, and why every pre-game begins with a reminder of today's rules. You have "Connecticut only" quirks, I have DMV quirks that I need to take into account in my games.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

This means that officials must be absolutely sure as to what set of rules they are using that day, and why every pre-game begins with a reminder of today's rules. You have "Connecticut only" quirks, I have DMV quirks that I need to take into account in my games.

Forgive me, but wouldn't they know this already if they showed up to work the game?

I have never needed someone to remind me what the procedures are for an NAIA game compared to a JUCO game that has some different rules in pre-game for example. So why would I need you to remind me of that fact? Now if you want to discuss a very unique difference of that level that you do not normally go by, then I can understand that part. But I do not need you to go through an entire diatribe about what rules are being used. Hell the levels I just mentioned required different shirts to be used. I think if I put the shirt in my bag, I probably am aware of the difference.

Peace