Adjusting from 2-person to 3-person mechanics (2PO to 3PO)

[ilyazhito]

I understand. If there are any leagues in my area beside intramural and scholastic ball that use 3-person, I'll look to work those, to get more experience with 3PO. I'll also look for potential mentors, and bounce questions off them.

That said, how to reconcile rotating as often as possible with the recommendation from the CCA mens and women's manuals to not rotate with under 5 seconds in the shot clock? I believe the reason behind that recommendation is that a team is very likely to shoot when facing shot clock pressure, and one should not rotate during a shot, to be able to be in position for the rebound. Would a college (or high school, in states with a shot clock) crew rotate as normal, but more quickly, after they had pointed to the shot clock?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

That said, how to reconcile rotating as often as possible with the recommendation from the CCA mens and women's manuals to not rotate with under 5 seconds in the shot clock? I believe the reason behind that recommendation is that a team is very likely to shoot when facing shot clock pressure, and one should not rotate during a shot, to be able to be in position for the rebound. Would a college (or high school, in states with a shot clock) crew rotate as normal, but more quickly, after they had pointed to the shot clock?

Reconcile? What is there to reconcile? Mechanics (again) are guides. There are situations when you have to officiate based on what is in front of you. Not saying you will need to do any rotation at that time, but I cannot think of a time when I was worried about a rotation because of what the shot clock says. If you have done this long enough, you kind of know when they are going to get ready to shoot or drive to the basket, which likely would not need you rotating at all. That can come with 15 seconds on the shot clock. Often the shot clock never gets to that point by the way the game is played today. But hey these are things you worry about often based on these posts, I just do not get why these things are broken down like this in your mind.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

That said, how to reconcile rotating as often as possible with the recommendation from the CCA mens and women's manuals to not rotate with under 5 seconds in the shot clock?

There's no conflict. You can't read every statement in isolation.

[ilyazhito]

I understand the value of rotating often, because you can get better angles on post plays when you move as the lead to the new strong side (or when you move down as the old Trail). Howvere, there seems to me to be a conflict between rotating in all situations, regardless of the shot clock and the recommendation (not order) by CCA to not rotate with <5 seconds on the shot clock. To me, these two statements are contradictory, and I know that a statement and its opposite cannot be true at the same time. That is why I am asking for specific solutions that college (or HS officials with a shot clock) use to solve this specific problem.

I also try to adopt a deliberate approach as the Center in transition, to not put myself out of position, and yet have good timing and angles to make the proper call. In the frontcourt, that changes, as I want to be aggressive in making off-ball calls in my area (or on-ball, should the ball move to my side while I am C). As lead, I try to mirror the ball and have a patient whistle on plays in my area. If I see the C alone, with more players and the ball on his side, I go (unless one of the immediates (pass, shot, dribble drive) happens). As trail, I try to get good position to referee defenders on ball (if the ball is in my area) or off ball, if they are somewhere else. I also try to pick up game and shot clock when I transition, switch, or rotate. Anything else that I need to add to my thought process?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

I understand the value of rotating often, because you can get better angles on post plays when you move as the lead to the new strong side (or when you move down as the old Trail). Howvere, there seems to me to be a conflict between rotating in all situations, regardless of the shot clock and the recommendation (not order) by CCA to not rotate with <5 seconds on the shot clock. To me, these two statements are contradictory, and I know that a statement and its opposite cannot be true at the same time. That is why I am asking for specific solutions that college (or HS officials with a shot clock) use to solve this specific problem.

I also try to adopt a deliberate approach as the Center in transition, to not put myself out of position, and yet have good timing and angles to make the proper call. In the frontcourt, that changes, as I want to be aggressive in making off-ball calls in my area (or on-ball, should the ball move to my side while I am C). As lead, I try to mirror the ball and have a patient whistle on plays in my area. If I see the C alone, with more players and the ball on his side, I go (unless one of the immediates (pass, shot, dribble drive) happens). As trail, I try to get good position to referee defenders on ball (if the ball is in my area) or off ball, if they are somewhere else. I also try to pick up game and shot clock when I transition, switch, or rotate. Anything else that I need to add to my thought process?

Since you have not worked a lot of 3 person and only have done it in intermural situations, I would suggest if you ever go to camp of any kind, do not do what you are doing here at that camp or any camp for that matter. Seriously, if you are at a high school camp, I would not care as a clinician what college does for the most part. If you are at a college camp, no one is going to care what the other gender does. You are only going to likely work one or the other in that setting, so what the Women's CCA Manual does when you are at a Men's camp is going to make that clinician not talk to you anymore (and vice versa). I get your curiosity and wanting to split every hair, but that is annoying when trying to find every little nit to pick about what something might say or not say. These are questions at best for a mentor or a personal conversation, not one that everyone can hear or wants to hear when they are not struggling with these issues. Not because people do not respect your wanting to know, but it does not matter what they say, you have an answer for why there is an issue. Many college camps, you might be lucky you even work a game with a shot clock at all during that camp for a major college conference. I cannot teach you in this setting what to do in every situation in 3 person. There are so many situations that you have to learn from by doing games and getting on the court feedback. When you rotate or not on the shot clock is not something that even many officials are going to even notice in many situations because you are officiating, not eyeballing the shot clock as the lead. Take a deep breath, it is OK to do what you feel is best in some of these situations. When you rotate is ultimately up to you and the crew you work with and what they notice. If someone has an issue with you rotating at a certain point, take it under advisement and do what you feel is best. Been to several camps this summer and this issue never came up, not once.

Peace

[Rich]

I know you've mentioned that you are on the spectrum (or something like that), so I get that it might be hard for you to let some of these things go.

I hire officials, but only at the HS varsity level. Take this for what it's worth. I do not care what mechanics people use or even if they are correct for the games they are currently working at a camp setting. When I look to hire people, I am looking to answer one question: "Can he/she ref?"

For me, it's about correct calls, how they interact with partners and coaches, and correct calls.

Anyone can officiate a perfect game on paper. Anyone can learn all the different mechanics variations and rules differences. You can demonstrate that to me with thousands of words here and none of it really matters.

I will watch you, probably for 5-10 minutes, and will know whether I want to use you...or not. For many officials, I disqualify them on the first possession (if I see eyes never leaving the ball, I'm moving on).

I'm afraid this preoccupation with knowing everything there is to know while off the court is going to hold you back in your progression. I could be wrong and hope I am, but it's my gut feel.

[ilyazhito]

Au contraire, mon frere. I seek to learn OFF the court so that I can get better ON the court for any contests that I am assigned. I have to switch rule sets all the time when I am umpiring baseball, because I might work a high school game by NFHS rules one day, a men's league game by professional rules the next, and a travel game that mixes high school and college rules the following day, so my remembering rules differences make sense.
My asking about rotations as they relate to the shot clock is NOT idle curiosity, because DC and MD (the jurisdictions where I officiate high school basketball) use a shot clock for freshman, JV, and varsity games, the latter of which are officiated using 3-person NFHS mechanics (with signals borrowed from the CCA Women's Manual to deal specifically with shot clock situations; DC public schools use a 30/15 shot clock, as do MD. Private schools use NCAAM shot clock and throw-in spot rules for boys (30/20), and NCAAW shot clock rules for girls (30/15).). If I work a varsity game this year (as an emergency replacement, most likely) or next year, I would need to store this situation in my memory bank to not be confused when I encounter it in a real game. I have experience with 3-person (intramurals and camps), and with the shot clock (DC and WCAC Girls subvarsity games), but not with the two combined (3 person game with a shot clock).
The only reason that I mentioned both the men's and women's manuals is because the instruction to not rotate late in the shot clock is present in both books. I would not use women's mechanics (starting the clock with a fist, signalling the corner 3-pointer as Lead, or switching tableside on fouls) at a men's camp, or vice versa.
If anyone else has any constructive suggestions about 3-person mechanics, I would be open to hear (and implement) them. When I officiate (or watch other officials, live or on videos), I learn what to do (or not to do). So, learning for me is a combination of practice, modelling, and receiving and implementing new information.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Au contraire, mon frere. I seek to learn OFF the court so that I can get better ON the court for any contests that I am assigned. I have to switch rule sets all the time when I am umpiring baseball, because I might work a high school game by NFHS rules one day, a men's league game by professional rules the next, and a travel game that mixes high school and college rules the following day, so my remembering rules differences make sense.
My asking about rotations as they relate to the shot clock is NOT idle curiosity, because DC and MD (the jurisdictions where I officiate high school basketball) use a shot clock for freshman, JV, and varsity games, the latter of which are officiated using 3-person NFHS mechanics (with signals borrowed from the CCA Women's Manual to deal specifically with shot clock situations; DC public schools use a 30/15 shot clock, as do MD. Private schools use NCAAM shot clock and throw-in spot rules for boys (30/20), and NCAAW shot clock rules for girls (30/15).). If I work a varsity game this year (as an emergency replacement, most likely) or next year, I would need to store this situation in my memory bank to not be confused when I encounter it in a real game. I have experience with 3-person (intramurals and camps), and with the shot clock (DC and WCAC Girls subvarsity games), but not with the two combined (3 person game with a shot clock).
The only reason that I mentioned both the men's and women's manuals is because the instruction to not rotate late in the shot clock is present in both books. I would not use women's mechanics (starting the clock with a fist, signalling the corner 3-pointer as Lead, or switching tableside on fouls) at a men's camp, or vice versa.
If anyone else has any constructive suggestions about 3-person mechanics, I would be open to hear (and implement) them. When I officiate (or watch other officials, live or on videos), I learn what to do (or not to do). So, learning for me is a combination of practice, modelling, and receiving and implementing new information.

You're trying to absorb too much information. You need to get to camp and let us know what your feedback is. All the other questions you are asking can be answered by acquiring the proper publications. Regardless, no one looking for talent in camp is going to care if you know every manual inside out. They want to do know if you can recognize fouls and violations, if you can handle players and coaches, are you in shape, and can you run up and down the court athletically.

If you keep on asking SO MANY questions looking for SO MUCH detail, people here are going to stop responding.