Adjusting from 2-person to 3-person mechanics (2PO to 3PO)

[Raymond]

The main difference is that two-person games follow the mechanics from the two person manual and three-person games follow the mechanics for the three-person manual.

Learn them separately and remember them separately.

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[JBleach85]

There is always going to be a learning curve when transitioning from 2-person to 3 person mechanics. The biggest thing to remember is to call your primary and call the game. Everything will come to more games that you work. I noticed that you talk about working Intramurals and that you work 3-person but then bounce back to 2-person. I remembering having to do that when I worked intramurals and were coming up the ranks. I got a mentor who helped me out who was also my supervisor for intramurals and she helped me out tremendously and I owe a lot to her for starting me off on the right foot.

My advice would be to keep doing what you are doing and doing but look into getting a mentor who can help you. Everything will come in the time it is like anything else you have to see enough plays in both 2-person and 3-person and things will click. We are still learning and even with all the levels that I am working I still am finding ways to get better in both 2-person and 3-person.

[ilyazhito]

I understand. If there are any leagues in my area beside intramural and scholastic ball that use 3-person, I'll look to work those, to get more experience with 3PO. I'll also look for potential mentors, and bounce questions off them.

That said, how to reconcile rotating as often as possible with the recommendation from the CCA mens and women's manuals to not rotate with under 5 seconds in the shot clock? I believe the reason behind that recommendation is that a team is very likely to shoot when facing shot clock pressure, and one should not rotate during a shot, to be able to be in position for the rebound. Would a college (or high school, in states with a shot clock) crew rotate as normal, but more quickly, after they had pointed to the shot clock?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

That said, how to reconcile rotating as often as possible with the recommendation from the CCA mens and women's manuals to not rotate with under 5 seconds in the shot clock? I believe the reason behind that recommendation is that a team is very likely to shoot when facing shot clock pressure, and one should not rotate during a shot, to be able to be in position for the rebound. Would a college (or high school, in states with a shot clock) crew rotate as normal, but more quickly, after they had pointed to the shot clock?

Reconcile? What is there to reconcile? Mechanics (again) are guides. There are situations when you have to officiate based on what is in front of you. Not saying you will need to do any rotation at that time, but I cannot think of a time when I was worried about a rotation because of what the shot clock says. If you have done this long enough, you kind of know when they are going to get ready to shoot or drive to the basket, which likely would not need you rotating at all. That can come with 15 seconds on the shot clock. Often the shot clock never gets to that point by the way the game is played today. But hey these are things you worry about often based on these posts, I just do not get why these things are broken down like this in your mind.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

That said, how to reconcile rotating as often as possible with the recommendation from the CCA mens and women's manuals to not rotate with under 5 seconds in the shot clock?

There's no conflict. You can't read every statement in isolation.

[ilyazhito]

I understand the value of rotating often, because you can get better angles on post plays when you move as the lead to the new strong side (or when you move down as the old Trail). Howvere, there seems to me to be a conflict between rotating in all situations, regardless of the shot clock and the recommendation (not order) by CCA to not rotate with <5 seconds on the shot clock. To me, these two statements are contradictory, and I know that a statement and its opposite cannot be true at the same time. That is why I am asking for specific solutions that college (or HS officials with a shot clock) use to solve this specific problem.

I also try to adopt a deliberate approach as the Center in transition, to not put myself out of position, and yet have good timing and angles to make the proper call. In the frontcourt, that changes, as I want to be aggressive in making off-ball calls in my area (or on-ball, should the ball move to my side while I am C). As lead, I try to mirror the ball and have a patient whistle on plays in my area. If I see the C alone, with more players and the ball on his side, I go (unless one of the immediates (pass, shot, dribble drive) happens). As trail, I try to get good position to referee defenders on ball (if the ball is in my area) or off ball, if they are somewhere else. I also try to pick up game and shot clock when I transition, switch, or rotate. Anything else that I need to add to my thought process?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

I understand the value of rotating often, because you can get better angles on post plays when you move as the lead to the new strong side (or when you move down as the old Trail). Howvere, there seems to me to be a conflict between rotating in all situations, regardless of the shot clock and the recommendation (not order) by CCA to not rotate with <5 seconds on the shot clock. To me, these two statements are contradictory, and I know that a statement and its opposite cannot be true at the same time. That is why I am asking for specific solutions that college (or HS officials with a shot clock) use to solve this specific problem.

I also try to adopt a deliberate approach as the Center in transition, to not put myself out of position, and yet have good timing and angles to make the proper call. In the frontcourt, that changes, as I want to be aggressive in making off-ball calls in my area (or on-ball, should the ball move to my side while I am C). As lead, I try to mirror the ball and have a patient whistle on plays in my area. If I see the C alone, with more players and the ball on his side, I go (unless one of the immediates (pass, shot, dribble drive) happens). As trail, I try to get good position to referee defenders on ball (if the ball is in my area) or off ball, if they are somewhere else. I also try to pick up game and shot clock when I transition, switch, or rotate. Anything else that I need to add to my thought process?

Since you have not worked a lot of 3 person and only have done it in intermural situations, I would suggest if you ever go to camp of any kind, do not do what you are doing here at that camp or any camp for that matter. Seriously, if you are at a high school camp, I would not care as a clinician what college does for the most part. If you are at a college camp, no one is going to care what the other gender does. You are only going to likely work one or the other in that setting, so what the Women's CCA Manual does when you are at a Men's camp is going to make that clinician not talk to you anymore (and vice versa). I get your curiosity and wanting to split every hair, but that is annoying when trying to find every little nit to pick about what something might say or not say. These are questions at best for a mentor or a personal conversation, not one that everyone can hear or wants to hear when they are not struggling with these issues. Not because people do not respect your wanting to know, but it does not matter what they say, you have an answer for why there is an issue. Many college camps, you might be lucky you even work a game with a shot clock at all during that camp for a major college conference. I cannot teach you in this setting what to do in every situation in 3 person. There are so many situations that you have to learn from by doing games and getting on the court feedback. When you rotate or not on the shot clock is not something that even many officials are going to even notice in many situations because you are officiating, not eyeballing the shot clock as the lead. Take a deep breath, it is OK to do what you feel is best in some of these situations. When you rotate is ultimately up to you and the crew you work with and what they notice. If someone has an issue with you rotating at a certain point, take it under advisement and do what you feel is best. Been to several camps this summer and this issue never came up, not once.

Peace

[Rich]

I know you've mentioned that you are on the spectrum (or something like that), so I get that it might be hard for you to let some of these things go.

I hire officials, but only at the HS varsity level. Take this for what it's worth. I do not care what mechanics people use or even if they are correct for the games they are currently working at a camp setting. When I look to hire people, I am looking to answer one question: "Can he/she ref?"

For me, it's about correct calls, how they interact with partners and coaches, and correct calls.

Anyone can officiate a perfect game on paper. Anyone can learn all the different mechanics variations and rules differences. You can demonstrate that to me with thousands of words here and none of it really matters.

I will watch you, probably for 5-10 minutes, and will know whether I want to use you...or not. For many officials, I disqualify them on the first possession (if I see eyes never leaving the ball, I'm moving on).

I'm afraid this preoccupation with knowing everything there is to know while off the court is going to hold you back in your progression. I could be wrong and hope I am, but it's my gut feel.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Raymond

The main difference is that two-person games follow the mechanics from the two person manual and three-person games follow the mechanics for the three-person manual.

Learn them separately and remember them separately.

Honestly, I think this is spot on. I had to learn both 2 person and 3 person at the same time. I was not a master of either for some time and always willing to learn stuff that takes place in every game. Now it is like riding a bike but still learning little things to make my game better.

Peace

[ilyazhito]

JRut, did you also learn 3-person through intramurals, or was your association at the time so desperate for bodies at the varsity level that they were willing to throw a young official into a 3-person varsity game with just camp training? It just seems surprising that you would learn both 2 and 3-person mechanics at the same time. If either scenario happened, what you said would make a lot of sense.

I learned 2-person before 3-person (I was already finished with my 2nd year with Board 12 by the time that I went to my first teaching camp and learned the basics of 3-person there), so I did not have to learn 2 systems simultaneously. I started working intramural basketball this season as my scholastic season was winding down, and I had prior knowledge of 3-person from camp, so I was able to work games under the 3-person system without disorientation. As I see it now, I am very comfortable with 2-person, because I have had 3 years of practice, but I only have one year of sporadic 3-person experience. This means that I know my responsibilities in 3-person, but am not yet fluent in 3-person, because I have not had as many opportunities to practice 3PO as 2PO. I'll be going to another camp this August to put the suggestions of the Forum members into practice and see what works, and will try to get as much 3-person scrimmage experience as I can (one association that I work for self-assigns scrimmages). Are there other types of leagues that use 3PO, so that I can be prepared when my time for varsity assignments comes?

[JRutledge]

I was never an intramural official. I have always been a licensed official in the state of Illinois. I learned by reading the mechanics books and going to camps. When I started there were just starting 3 Person in our state for the playoffs. I learned both mechanics sets at the same time. I was not forced to do anything, I realized that it made more sense to learn both. It was not hard as I did not have to relearn or figure out the differences. I also worked varsity in my first year because of the 3 Person was needed for everyone to learn. Again no magic formula, just watch other levels and figure out the differences and expectations of each position.

Peace

[SC Official]

With all due respect, we don't need to read five paragraph essays telling us what you've learned in intramurals and your camps. People on this forum are happy to answer questions, but we're not interested in hearing every detail of your officiating experiences or what you learned at camp. Find a mentor and use him/her for that. When I see the length of your posts I immediately lose interest (just ask BillyMac how people feel about some of his posts). Not to mention a lot of the information you're telling us, we learned a long time ago. It's nothing new or revolutionary. Most everyone on this forum knows the rules, mechanics, and philosophies for the levels they work very thoroughly. Sorry if that's harsh, but it's the truth; we've been doing this a lot longer than you have.

You're going to have to figure some things out on your own and learn that at the end of the day, no one is going to be able to answer every question you have down to the fine print. Also, you can read and regurgitate the manuals and rules all you want; at the end of the day, if you aren't able to do what your assigners or camp clinicians want, you're not going to be pleased with the results. And if you come back with "but that's not what the manual says," you can kiss any chance of getting hired goodbye.

You would do better by condensing your posts and figuring some things out on your own.

[ilyazhito]

Is going to the blocks before each quarter random, or is it determined by where that umpire was when the quarter ended?

I don't know, because the intramural games I worked 3-person for used halves. Presumably, the umpires just go to the blocks on the same side they were for warm-ups before each half, and then to L or C, depending on where the throw-in goes for the 2nd half. (Placement for the 1st half and OT is predetermined, because those periods start with a jump ball)

Any other things that would confuse an official newer to 3PO?

[bob jenkins]

Go wherever is closest. It’s notbrocket science and not every thing needs to be spelled out in detail.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Is going to the blocks before each quarter random, or is it determined by where that umpire was when the quarter ended?

I don't know, because the intramural games I worked 3-person for used halves. Presumably, the umpires just go to the blocks on the same side they were for warm-ups before each half, and then to L or C, depending on where the throw-in goes for the 2nd half. (Placement for the 1st half and OT is predetermined, because those periods start with a jump ball)

Any other things that would confuse an official newer to 3PO?

It is rare anymore that I work with guys where we go to the block. Usually, there is something to talk about so it is rare that this is done at least in my experience. Usually, we will talk about situations or warnings that might have been made previously or coaching issues that could come up. Or at the very least, two officials talk while the other one is on the block. The only reason to kind of be on the block is be ready for the end of the intermission of the quarter so that you can get the teams out of the huddle. Other than that it is kind of not used all the time.

Peace