AAU Tournaments and peer-pressure to move the games along...

[ODog]

EVERYTHING bucky just said. Beautiful picture of the AAU landscape in a nutshell.

And I'm with HokiePaul regarding adapting playcalling to the level of game. Absolutely! Kids vs. adults, boys vs. girls, high school vs. AAU, etc. Anyone who calls all of those exactly the same is not anyone I would want to share a court with.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ODog

EVERYTHING bucky just said. Beautiful picture of the AAU landscape in a nutshell.

And I'm with HokiePaul regarding adapting playcalling to the level of game. Absolutely! Kids vs. adults, boys vs. girls, high school vs. AAU, etc. Anyone who calls all of those exactly the same is not anyone I would want to share a court with.

Then we are not working together.

Because when I have called the game differently as you suggest or there are those that cannot call the game that is in front of them, they often do not get hired. Again was at a camp this weekend and not a single clinician said anything about what level we were calling for a college evaluation. If there was a foul, it was a foul. Nobody said a thing about, "In college, you would do differently." And that has been my experience in going to these kinds of camps. Because the rules for those things are practically identical. You might have things like backcourt, goaltending, basket interference or even where you put the ball in play be different, but everything involving contact is the same. I do not think of the level I work, I just do my job. Worked very well for me for over 20 years. Actually, this position was said by a former mentor of mine that was an NBA official. He said to call the games the exact same too.

Peace

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Then we are not working together.

Because when I have called the game differently as you suggest or there are those that cannot call the game that is in front of them, they often do not get hired. Again was at a camp this weekend and not a single clinician said anything about what level we were calling for a college evaluation. If there was a foul, it was a foul. Nobody said a thing about, "In college, you would do differently." And that has been my experience in going to these kinds of camps. Because the rules for those things are practically identical. You might have things like backcourt, goaltending, basket interference or even where you put the ball in play be different, but everything involving contact is the same. I do not think of the level I work, I just do my job. Worked very well for me for over 20 years. Actually, this position was said by a former mentor of mine that was an NBA official. He said to call the games the exact same too.

Peace

I think you're probably misinterpreting what was stated about adapting play calling to the level. Same goes with how you communicate with players and coaches. The rules on contact might be written the same, but they still require the official to judge a play and rule that contact as legal or not. The level of play and type of game does factor into that judgement call -- at least for me. No two plays are exactly the same. Contact that may be a ruled incidental in one situation may be ruled illegal at another based on numerous factors.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I think you're probably misinterpreting what was stated about adapting play calling to the level. Same goes with how you communicate with players and coaches. The rules on contact might be written the same, but they still require the official to judge a play and rule that contact as legal or not. The level of play and type of game does factor into that judgement call -- at least for me. No two plays are exactly the same. Contact that may be a ruled incidental in one situation may be ruled illegal at another based on numerous factors.

Agree with Hokie in response to Jrut. Respectfully Jrut, I was always taught the opposite at college camps. I recall a D1 Supervisor, standing near a game I was working. They were HS players and kid went to the rack for a layup with some contact. I called a foul and sure enough, soon after the play, he came to me and said to pass on those at the college level. I am not basing everything on just that play as I have been told that and seen it be told to others many times throughout the years. I understand Jrut's point though. Taking the concept and calling all games with same consistency is an argument that certainly can be made. One wouldn't get much flack for doing that.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bucky

Agree with Hokie in response to Jrut. Respectfully Jrut, I was always taught the opposite at college camps.

OK. It did not happen or such statement was stated this past weekend. The only reference to being a high school official was the mechanics that were used. That was it. Nothing about how we called the game or did not call the game. As a matter of fact, the emphasis on contact near the basket is the exact same thing we are taught at the high school level. Then again one of the same supervisors I work for at the high school level assigns games at the college level (actually that is most of the case where I live). We are never asked to call the game differently for a high school game. What we do got us hired or keeps us on staff.

Originally Posted by bucky

I recall a D1 Supervisor, standing near a game I was working. They were HS players and kid went to the rack for a layup with some contact. I called a foul and sure enough, soon after the play, he came to me and said to pass on those at the college level. I am not basing everything on just that play as I have been told that and seen it be told to others many times throughout the years. I understand Jrut's point though. Taking the concept and calling all games with same consistency is an argument that certainly can be made. One wouldn't get much flack for doing that.

I went to a college camp last year was the first time I can think of where there was both college players and high school (AAU) players in the same setting (they did not play each other BTW) We were not told at all to do anything different when officiating. If we called a foul on a drive in the AAU game, we were expected to call the same foul with the JUCO players. The JUCO players were clearly bigger and faster but the same concept on how we came to a judgment was the same. And that has been the case well over 10 years I have been attending D1 type camps and that camp was run by a D1 supervisor as well.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I think you're probably misinterpreting what was stated about adapting play calling to the level. Same goes with how you communicate with players and coaches. The rules on contact might be written the same, but they still require the official to judge a play and rule that contact as legal or not. The level of play and type of game does factor into that judgement call -- at least for me. No two plays are exactly the same. Contact that may be a ruled incidental in one situation may be ruled illegal at another based on numerous factors.

You are right that no two plays are the same. But again that was not my point either. And it actually IMO gets easier to call when you get older players because their ability is much more defined. But again I do not go into a mindset, "This is a JV game so I need to use different judgment." Now if you do that is fine, but not my issue. That is probably the reason call a lot of girls games because the same idea of what is a foul to me in that game is the same it is in a boys game. That is often not accepted in girls games so I tend to stay away from them wanting a call every time there is contact. But I call a freshman game with the same idea of judgment that I would a Division 3 game. The difference obviously is that the Divison 3 player can likely handle a certain level of contact and keep playing, where a freshman might get rattled. But that could be the case in different Division 3 teams if they are not on the same level of skill.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

But again I do not go into a mindset, "This is a JV game so I need to use different judgment." ... girls games because the same idea of what is a foul to me in that game is the same it is in a boys game. That is often not accepted in girls games so I tend to stay away from them wanting a call every time there is contact ... call a freshman game with the same idea of judgment that I would a Division 3 game. The difference obviously is that the Division 3 player can likely handle a certain level of contact and keep playing, where a freshman might get rattled.

Like JRutledge, I never go into a game with a certain mindset regarding contact, rather, I try to see what the players can handle. Hopefully I can figure it out, and get on the same page with my partner, sooner rather than later.

Girls generally can't handle contact as well as boys, but some girls can, and some boys can't. Younger players generally can't handle contact as well as older players, but some younger players can, and some older players can't.

Watch the players (and listen to the coaches) for the first few minutes and see patterns develop, and then adjust to those patterns, but don't go into the game with any fully formed preconceived notions.

I always have problems going from a Thursday night girls varsity game to a Friday night boys varsity game (but, oddly, no problems with the reverse). After a few minutes I get it all figured out and then its easy peasy lemon squeezy for the remaining three and a half periods.