AAU Tournaments and peer-pressure to move the games along...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I've never had an issue with these types of things. And I disagree that there is one way that is the "right for the game of basketball" as someone suggested.

High school games follow NFHS rules and (at least in my area) you have an assignor and rules interpreter who define an approach that they want. Don't try and take your HS approach and apply it to a AAU game or an adult rec league or a 5th grade CYO game -- or a college game for that matter.

My goal in an AAU type game is consistency of calls. We may not adhere to the strict NFHS points of emphasis on hand checking, for example, but that's fine because its not an NFHS game where I'm expected to call things a certain way.

I also try to find some value in these types of games. I've found that working adult rec games or AAU games, for example, has helped me with having a patient whistle, watching plays start, develop, and finish, and with evaluating advantage/disadvantage.

OK, my question is simple. Then what standards would you use if you say you do not use strict NFHS interpretations? The NCAA has the same exact interpretations as the NF (Guess where the NF got their standard from?) Even the NBA has similar philosophies when it comes to plays on the perimeter, the post is just a little different for a lot of reasons.

Peace

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

OK, my question is simple. Then what standards would you use if you say you do not use strict NFHS interpretations? The NCAA has the same exact interpretations as the NF (Guess where the NF got their standard from?) Even the NBA has similar philosophies when it comes to plays on the perimeter, the post is just a little different for a lot of reasons.

Peace

Can you even define "strict interpretations" on judgement calls? There are absolutes in rules and then there are rules that require judgement. You can't tell me that you judge illegal contact the same way for different levels of play. The non-HS leagues do many things different -- running clocks, different # of timeouts, no color restrictions on undershirts, etc. If the assignor for an AAU league makes it clear that they want to keep the games moving, I have no issue taking that into consideration just as I would if the assignor who tells us not to strictly enforce NFHS uniform rules that aren't safety related.

My whole point was that I personally don't see adapting my playcalling to the a non-HS environment as a big deal. Someone who tells me that they don't adapt their decision making to the level of play and type of game is either lying or not a good referee.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

Can you even define "strict interpretations" on judgement calls? There are absolutes in rules and then there are rules that require judgement.

10-1-4 in college is the same rule of 10-6-12 in NF.

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

You can't tell me that you judge illegal contact the same way for different levels of play. The non-HS leagues do many things different -- running clocks, different # of timeouts, no color restrictions on undershirts, etc.

I absolutely call the game the same way. I was not talking about obvious rules differences like if the 3 point line in college is different than high school that I would use that line in high school. Or I would call a block-charge call the same as if there is an RA in a high school game. But when the contact rules are the same, I would call it exactly the same way. If the action is not a foul in a college game, it is not a foul in a high school game. But many uniform rules in college and NF are practically the same and will be strictly enforced. That is often not even considered in games under AAU. Did a tournament in another state and no one was going around telling kids to roll up their shorts or take off those undershirts that did not match the jersey. Heck there were even officials that allowed taped ears because the kid had on earrings.

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

If the assignor for an AAU league makes it clear that they want to keep the games moving, I have no issue taking that into consideration just as I would if the assignor who tells us not to strictly enforce NFHS uniform rules that aren't safety related.

Well if there are rules for fouls, I am calling them. Because if we don't, then I am not doing my job and I would rather call the foul that is supported by rule than pass on something. The most games I work in AAU are associated with a camp and no where are we told to not call something because it is AAU or we are being evaluated for higher than high school.

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

My whole point was that I personally don't see adapting my playcalling to the a non-HS environment as a big deal. Someone who tells me that they don't adapt their decision making to the level of play and type of game is either lying or not a good referee.

Well I see basketball as basketball. It is the same basic game from grammar school to college and even pros. The difference is the ability of the players that can handle marginal contact differently. But if the illegal contact puts a player at a disadvantage, then it is a foul regardless of who is playing. And when I go to camps were are asked to call the game the same that I would if I was working a high school game even though the camp is for college basketball. If you are asking me to change something, then you do not understand the game IMO.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... there were even officials that allowed taped ears because the kid had on earrings.

While I'm not the most flexible guy when it comes to deviating from NFHS rules, I can be a little flexible in some non-scholastic situations. However, this is one line that I'm not about to cross because it involves a safety issue. If someone gets an earlobe ripped apart, this would be the time that a lawsuit (like what we've been discussing) could, and probably would, be filed, with the officials sitting on the wrong side of the courtroom with an expensive attorney looking at his watch figuring out billable hours. And I can guarantee that the tournament directors who allowed the earrings (and so instructed the officials) would not be the only names on the lawsuit, I'm pretty sure that the officials would be also named. Why can't the kid sue his stupid parents for stupidly allowing him to wear a stupid earring in a stupid basketball game, organized by stupid tournament directors, and officiated by stupid officials?

If a tournament director were to ask me, as an official, to allow a player to participate with an earring, he would have two choices, don't allow the player to participate, or, "So long, farewell, auf wiedersehen, adieu, au revoir, and goodbye".

[bucky]

I think AAU/AYBT/etc. ball depends on many, many factors and just isn't simply black/white. I have officiated summer ball for about 20 years and have encountered a vast spectrum of issues. I've officiated very small kids to plenty of now-in-the-NBA kids. At some tournaments, this same disparity was 3 courts from each other. Some directors allow officials to wear shorts whereby others require/demand full-length pants. Some are 2-man only while others are 3-man only. Some are really low-level and for fun while others have hundreds of college coaches drooling on the sideline. I think each game is case by case. For big boys, a lot is allowed. For the younger kids, less is allowed. The format usually is a big determining factor too. Some have running clock while others do not. Some have hired tables while others have parents working on a just-before-tip-voluntold basis. Some paid $15/game while others paid $40/game. Some provide 3 meals/day while others provide nothing. Just a huge blanket of differences from one tourney to the next. I will say this though, parents are always the number one negative about any tourney.

[ODog]

EVERYTHING bucky just said. Beautiful picture of the AAU landscape in a nutshell.

And I'm with HokiePaul regarding adapting playcalling to the level of game. Absolutely! Kids vs. adults, boys vs. girls, high school vs. AAU, etc. Anyone who calls all of those exactly the same is not anyone I would want to share a court with.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ODog

EVERYTHING bucky just said. Beautiful picture of the AAU landscape in a nutshell.

And I'm with HokiePaul regarding adapting playcalling to the level of game. Absolutely! Kids vs. adults, boys vs. girls, high school vs. AAU, etc. Anyone who calls all of those exactly the same is not anyone I would want to share a court with.

Then we are not working together.

Because when I have called the game differently as you suggest or there are those that cannot call the game that is in front of them, they often do not get hired. Again was at a camp this weekend and not a single clinician said anything about what level we were calling for a college evaluation. If there was a foul, it was a foul. Nobody said a thing about, "In college, you would do differently." And that has been my experience in going to these kinds of camps. Because the rules for those things are practically identical. You might have things like backcourt, goaltending, basket interference or even where you put the ball in play be different, but everything involving contact is the same. I do not think of the level I work, I just do my job. Worked very well for me for over 20 years. Actually, this position was said by a former mentor of mine that was an NBA official. He said to call the games the exact same too.

Peace