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Old Mon Mar 12, 2018, 01:49pm
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Movement Within your Cylinder - The Yoga Paradox

Try to make this as simple as possible from a positioning stand point. May just be overcomplicating and confusing myself but got into a discussion with a couple of other guys the other night.

Where the defenders feet are mark their space on the floor and their cylinder exists between and above that space. (Acknowledging limitations. Can't be extra wide or have 1 foot way out in front or behind.)

Within that space is movement of your trunk or torso able to negate your LGP or space?

A)
Example: The space between and over A1's feet is their space. But when in a defensive stance their butt and hips are at the back end and beyond their feet while the top of their torso is out above their feet. If they straighten up their knees to get taller as contact/shot is imminent their hips are moving toward the front of their cylinder as is thier stomach while their shoulder are moving up and back in the cylinder. IME I would not consider this moving foward into the offensive player if contact occurs.

B) Example: The defender keeps their feet squared but turns at the waist turning their shoulder into the path instead of the chest and contacting the dribbler/shooter. Shoulder is still between feet and in cylinder. Are we making the O or D repsonsible for the contact?

C) Example: Defender is guarding dribbler. Defender is low active and in LGP. Offense is perpendicular to defense shoulder aligned to defenders chest, but no contact. Minimal space between defense and offense but no contact. If defense thrusts hips forward (clearly not able phyiscally to get hips past front of his own feet though) in his cylinder and the movement creates a bump with the offensive player whose that disrupts the dribblers timing, freedom etc. Do we have D responsible for that contact?

In a nutshell the defenders torso, hips, shoulders etc. Moving up, down, back or foward, or around within their space ever make them responsible for contact.
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Old Mon Mar 12, 2018, 05:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post
Try to make this as simple as possible from a positioning stand point. May just be overcomplicating and confusing myself but got into a discussion with a couple of other guys the other night.

Where the defenders feet are mark their space on the floor and their cylinder exists between and above that space. (Acknowledging limitations. Can't be extra wide or have 1 foot way out in front or behind.)
I don't agree with that, at least not completely. The torso marks a defender's spot on the floor. The feet may be extended to the side, front, back, etc. A defender hasn't obtained a specific LGP just by getting their feet in the path, they must get their body in the path to have LGP. The feet on the floor mark the time at which they obtain that position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post
Within that space is movement of your trunk or torso able to negate your LGP or space?

A)
Example: The space between and over A1's feet is their space. But when in a defensive stance their butt and hips are at the back end and beyond their feet while the top of their torso is out above their feet. If they straighten up their knees to get taller as contact/shot is imminent their hips are moving toward the front of their cylinder as is their stomach while their shoulder are moving up and back in the cylinder. IME I would not consider this moving forward into the offensive player if contact occurs.
Agree. This is not generally moving forward.
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Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post

B) Example: The defender keeps their feet squared but turns at the waist turning their shoulder into the path instead of the chest and contacting the dribbler/shooter. Shoulder is still between feet and in cylinder. Are we making the O or D responsible for the contact?
If they're turning their shoulder "into the path" that means the defender was not in the path to start with. If you mean turning the shoulder within the path but such that some part of their body was rotating forward as other parts are rotating backwards, then, the defender is legal (IMO).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post

C) Example: Defender is guarding dribbler. Defender is low active and in LGP. Offense is perpendicular to defense shoulder aligned to defenders chest, but no contact. Minimal space between defense and offense but no contact. If defense thrusts hips forward (clearly not able physically to get hips past front of his own feet though) in his cylinder and the movement creates a bump with the offensive player whose that disrupts the dribblers timing, freedom etc. Do we have D responsible for that contact?
Defense...that is called bellying up. While the defender can stand up, they can't do so in a way that also invades another player's space and displaces them.
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Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post

In a nutshell the defenders torso, hips, shoulders etc. Moving up, down, back or forward, or around within their space ever make them responsible for contact.
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Mon Mar 12, 2018 at 05:20pm.
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Old Tue Mar 13, 2018, 10:01am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I don't agree with that, at least not completely. The torso marks a defender's spot on the floor. The feet may be extended to the side, front, back, etc. A defender hasn't obtained a specific LGP just by getting their feet in the path, they must get their body in the path to have LGP. The feet on the floor mark the time at which they obtain that position.


Agree. This is not generally moving forward.

If they're turning their shoulder "into the path" that means the defender was not in the path to start with. If you mean turning the shoulder within the path but such that some part of their body was rotating forward as other parts are rotating backwards, then, the defender is legal (IMO).

Defense...that is called bellying up. While the defender can stand up, they can't do so in a way that also invades another player's space and displaces them.

I agree in principle. Thanks!

Follow up clarifications:

In the "belly up" example. If the contact happens because defense moves into space and displaces from that space the offensive player, that makes sense. What if the offenses body (shoulder, arm, etc, hip) is in space that belongs to the defense but hasn't been taken but defense now straightens up, leads ches/hips, etc to occupy space that is theirs they just hadn't been using? Often see offensive and defensive feet, particularly when players are perpendicular, which intersect space but because of body position bodies aren't touching. Just to trying to establish how you legislate space that is in theoretically in the defenses cylinder (officiate the defense) but isn't always held by body part, and what happens when it suddenly is. or vice versa.

So based on your explanation if defense hops feet forward to meet imminent contact but does so by thursting hips and feet to new spot. Even if feet land before contact happens, because the body and torso is getting to the spot/cylinder at the same time as the offense we are considering the defense to be moving into the offense.
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Old Tue Mar 13, 2018, 01:53pm
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[QUOTE=Pantherdreams;1018844]I agree in principle. Thanks!

Follow up clarifications:

In the "belly up" example. If the contact happens because defense moves into space and displaces from that space the offensive player, that makes sense. What if the offenses body (shoulder, arm, etc, hip) is in space that belongs to the defense but hasn't been taken but defense now straightens up, leads ches/hips, etc to occupy space that is theirs they just hadn't been using? Often see offensive and defensive feet, particularly when players are perpendicular, which intersect space but because of body position bodies aren't touching. Just to trying to establish how you legislate space that is in theoretically in the defenses cylinder (officiate the defense) but isn't always held by body part, and what happens when it suddenly is. or vice versa.
/QUOTE]
I don't think there is any one right answer there. If both are in a natural posture, I'm considering the one who moves to be invading the other's space. But, in all likelihood, there will not be enough contact to make a difference on these situations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post
So based on your explanation if defense hops feet forward to meet imminent contact but does so by thursting hips and feet to new spot. Even if feet land before contact happens, because the body and torso is getting to the spot/cylinder at the same time as the offense we are considering the defense to be moving into the offense.
I do (some may disagree). The rules on block/charge are all about getting the torso in the path.
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