T?

[RefsNCoaches]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

I know our “T” thresholds are all different, but I just wanted to take the pulse of the Forum:

4th Grade Boys Travel, at halftime, the 1st place team is losing a close game to a sub-.500 team. Huddle is 10 feet from where partner and I are sitting. HC screaming at his players “That team STINKS”! I can’t believe you are losing to them (points to the other team), this will wreck our playoff seeding. You’d better get it together in the 2nd half!”
Obviously at the HS level, nothing, but 4th graders…I didn’t do anything, anybody whacking him?

8th grade girls, travel playoff game, in the first minute I notice Team A HC and 2 ACs standing. At the next dead ball, I tell the HC that the ACs must be seated. He says OK, and AC1 immediately sits down. I walk back to administer the throw-in, and I see AC2 still standing. I look over at him, and he says “I am scratching my back”. Then he sits. Not giving that T bothered me more than the first one. Just took me a little too long to process what he said.

I Coach 5th grade boys travel...I also have reffed a lot of lower level stuff in my 19 seasons. I'm probably not T'ing that up (despite my despise for this guy and that coaching style). I guess some guys think that works....it doesn't work for me and my players and it's not my style as a coach. I'm gonna get more out of my kids without demeaning them or my opponent. We focus on what we are doing well and what we need to do better at. My concern with the other team stops at what sets they are running against us and what I need to have my kids do. And I could give a rat's about my seeding...we gotta play whomever we play.

Positive Coaching Alliance program should be MANDATORY for every youth coach...problem is, if you got a few kids and a couple hundred bucks, you too can be a bball coach!

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

4th Grade Boys Travel, at halftime, the 1st place team is losing a close game to a sub-.500 team. Huddle is 10 feet from where partner and I are sitting. HC screaming at his players “That team STINKS”! I can’t believe you are losing to them (points to the other team), this will wreck our playoff seeding. You’d better get it together in the 2nd half!”
Obviously at the HS level, nothing, but 4th graders…I didn’t do anything, anybody whacking him?

I had a similar situation several yrs ago in a Girls Varsity game.

In a a fairly quiet gym, the coach was yelling at one of his players, "Are you going to let HER do that to you?" "If you want to get to the next level, you can't let a player like THAT cover you!" "Take her to the basket!" etc.

While I thought the coach was an a$$hat, I didn't feel it was my place. The parents and administration are apparently allowing that behavior every day. Let them handle it.

PS - He's not there anymore and was eventually let go.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

The consensus here in the past has been to have less tolerance for nonsense at the lower levels.

I can see where the consensus would feel that way but....

Consider that, generally speaking, coaches/players make more mistakes the lower the level of play. Violations/fouls are tolerated much more in a 4th grade game than they are in a Varsity game. Coaches are much less experienced with rules/strategy/coaching in a 4th grade game than they are in a Varsity game and therefore their actions are much more tolerated.

Perhaps you meant that nonsense referred to something else. "Nonsense" has no place at any level. That is what makes it nonsense. Not looking for a debate and fully understand, I think, what you are saying.

I simply meant that the types of issues in the OP could be handled without the rule book. Dialogue could probably fix it easier than embarrassing anyone or bringing the official to the center of attention. (not to mention avoiding a delay in the game, which is awful at that age level, lol)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

The consensus here in the past has been to have less tolerance for nonsense at the lower levels.

That assumes that everyone here either works those levels or that those here care what the consensus of the people here matter in their officiating lives.

There are other ways to handle this situation if it bothers you that much. Why not just go to the coach and tell him what you did not like? Why is a T the only way to solve this problem?

Peace

[Amesman]

So many of these travel ball coaches fall into two camps: green and don't know better or overly aggressive and probably should know better (but maybe don't).

To Rut's point: I usually find a word or two to the coach in question (or even an assistant you might perceive as bright enough to "get" it and pass word along), can rectify the situation. Most coaches don't want to think they're getting on the bad side of the refs.

As to the OP or some of the other demeaning comments from coaches written about here, I think there's an important limit to what you let an aggressive coach get away with. There's a big difference between, "You have to move your feet and block the baseline!" and "You're going to let HER beat you baseline?" or "You're going to let THIS team beat you?!" If one player demeans, taunts or intimidates another player on the court, there's justification for a T. So we're going to let a coach loudly insult opposing kids for everyone to hear?

A coach ripping his team is one thing -- it can be done just for his/her players' ears. Bellowing about another team or player so those kids/opponents and the entire crowd can hear is something on a different level, especially if it's mere kid ball. That gets back to my first point about some game management with the offenders initially; if they choose to display poor sportsmanship after that, stiffer measures might be needed. There's no way around it. So, no, I'm not proposing playing coach while in stripes, and I wouldn't got to the T as a first remedy. But I'm certainly not letting an utter lack of respect and decorum take over, either.

Isn't the first thing said in a pre-game to the players and coaches (at least at the high school level) something about sportsmanship?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Amesman

Isn't the first thing said in a pre-game to the players and coaches (at least at the high school level) something about sportsmanship?

That is largely the problem. There is no meeting like this at all in travel. There is no overall governing body that seems to legislate a lot of things. So you get the wild wild west. One of the reasons I stay away from these games. I remember a coach thought it was my job as an official to teach the kids the game. And was baffled when I told him, "That is not my job, I call the game, I do not coach it."

But the beauty of what we do is that officials have all kinds of opinions for all different kinds of reasons.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... the wild wild west ...

Regarding the original post, I, personally, would stay out of it, but if I did want to get involved, which I don't, this travel coach has to answer to somebody.

Somebody publicizes league tryouts, somebody supplies the gymnasiums, somebody buys the uniforms, somebody pays for insurance, somebody pays the officials, somebody pays the custodian to open the school, somebody asked this guy to be a coach, and gave him the authority to coach the team, etc.

In my town it would be the Parks and Recreation Department, and we have a Parks and Recreation Director. That's the guy who would get a call from me, if I did want to get involved, which I don't.

Of course, the usual caveat, check your local listings. Offers may vary.

[RefsNCoaches]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Regarding the original post, I, personally, would stay out of it, but if I did want to get involved, which I don't, this travel coach has to answer to somebody.

Somebody publicizes league tryouts, somebody supplies the gymnasiums, somebody buys the uniforms, somebody pays for insurance, somebody pays the officials, somebody pays the custodian to open the school, somebody asked this guy to be a coach, and gave him the authority to coach the team, etc.

In my town it would be the Parks and Recreation Department, and we have a Parks and Recreation Director. That's the guy who would get a call from me, if I did want to get involved, which I don't.

Of course, the usual caveat, check your local listings. Offers may vary.

Sadly, a lot of the tourney's put on are more interested in getting teams in and collecting the team entry fee than they are backing officials or seeing that an ejected player or coach sits the next game as they would in a HS contest with NFHS rules as the umbrella.

The youth leagues I work stand behind the sportsmanship thing very sternly with their coaches and players and they support the officials. I don't see the same at AAU Tourneys. Hell, look what Adidas did when LaVarr Ball griped about the women officiating his team's game in Vegas. That is in part why I will never own a pair of Adidas in the future. It's a small amount of money they are losing but it's the principle for me.

[Amesman]

Originally Posted by RefsNCoaches

... it's the principle for me.

Totally understand and agree with the comments since my previous. I am not looking to butt in or go to any T unless absolutely necessary, and only after cautioning at some level.

But RNC epitomizes it above for me. If I hear a coach essentially yell to one of his players, "You can't stop him/them even though he/they SUCK?!" -- which is the type of very loud commentary some have essentially referred to here -- it's not getting a deaf ear from me. The inmates won't run the asylum.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Amesman

Isn't the first thing said in a pre-game to the players and coaches (at least at the high school level) something about sportsmanship?

Do you actually think the stupid pregame meeting makes a difference in how players act? Newsflash: they're not listening to us 99% of the time.

[Amesman]

No kidding. That meeting is merely CYA. It gives leverage later if business needs taking care of.

[SC Official]

A pregame meeting or lack thereof makes absolutely no difference for me in my tolerance threshold or how much "leverage" I have.

Matter of fact, my threshold for nonsense is lower in wreck ball (in the rare event I work it) than in high school, even without the dumb meeting.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Do you actually think the stupid pregame meeting makes a difference in how players act? Newsflash: they're not listening to us 99% of the time.

Overall, yes. It doesn't make any difference in that specific game, but it does on the long run.

It's kind of like going to the gym and lifting for the first time. You won't be any stronger tomorrow than you are today, but if you do it every other day for two months, you will be stringer than when you started.