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Old Sun Dec 03, 2017, 12:48pm
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HS end game events

Curious about a couple of things from the last couple of minutes of a close game last night. HS varsity tournament.

#1. White running half court offense. Half hearted screen being set that the the dribbler doesn’t appear to be planning to use. Whistle from the official clos to the play. In the stands, we can’t figure out what happened. Inbounded for the same team. We hear after the game that the ref stoped play to tell the player defending the potential screener to stop poking the screener or he’d be ejected. No foul. Does that make sense? Seems to me it’s either a foul or play continues, with, perhaps, a “knock it off” while play continues.

#2. Just under a minute, the team that is behind scores to bring it within 4. Player on that team grabs bal and makes a chest pass throwing the ball all the way to the corner of the court where there are no players. Ref immediately whistles and issues delay of game warning. Right call? Or just let clock keep running while ball is fetched? Or is it so blatant that it should be an immediate T? The stop and warning was clearly beneficial to the team “warned.”

(There was a third odd clock stoppage with under 20 seconds. Team leading by two inbounding after other team scored. Touchdown pass for a dunk to lead by four. Whistle. Nothing called. Still no idea why.)

Odd end of game.
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Old Sun Dec 03, 2017, 01:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker View Post
Curious about a couple of things from the last couple of minutes of a close game last night. HS varsity tournament.

#2. Just under a minute, the team that is behind scores to bring it within 4. Player on that team grabs bal and makes a chest pass throwing the ball all the way to the corner of the court where there are no players. Ref immediately whistles and issues delay of game warning. Right call? Or just let clock keep running while ball is fetched? Or is it so blatant that it should be an immediate T? The stop and warning was clearly beneficial to the team “warned.”
I say T. If you're intentionally throwing it away from everyone else, that's clearly unsportsmanlike, not to mention trying to use the delay rule to your unfair advantage.
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Old Sun Dec 03, 2017, 01:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
I say T. If you're intentionally throwing it away from everyone else, that's clearly unsportsmanlike, not to mention trying to use the delay rule to your unfair advantage.
Here is the rule that supports your ruling (numbers may be off, copied/pasted from an older version of the book):
Quote:
10-3
Player Technical
A player shall not:
ART. 5 . . . Delay the game by acts such as:
a. Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play.
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Old Sun Dec 03, 2017, 02:05pm
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After A Team Warning ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
I say T. If you're intentionally throwing it away from everyone else, that's clearly unsportsmanlike, not to mention trying to use the delay rule to your unfair advantage.
The old Patrick Ewing trick.

Disagree.

The rule and casebook play is very clear, warn first.

A team shall not: Allow the game to develop into an actionless contest, this includes
the following and similar acts: Interfering with the ball following a goal after any team warning for delay.

10.1.5 SITUATION D: Immediately following a goal by A1, A3 slaps the ball
away so that Team B is unable to make a quick throw-in. RULING: The official
shall sound his/her whistle and go to the table to have the scorer record a team
warning for delay
. The warning shall then be reported to the head coach of Team A.
Any subsequent delay by Team A shall result in a team technical foul charged
to Team A. (4-47-3)
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Dec 03, 2017 at 02:15pm.
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Old Sun Dec 03, 2017, 02:09pm
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Resumption Of Play Procedure ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Here is the rule that supports your ruling (numbers may be off, copied/pasted from an older version of the book):
Doesn't 10-3-5 refer to further delays after the resumption of play procedure is put into effect (free throw, throwins, etc.) and there are further delays, or delays that are not covered by the resumption of play procedure, i.e. free thrower not moving into the semicircle for a free throw (not after a timeout)?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Dec 03, 2017 at 02:16pm.
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Old Sun Dec 03, 2017, 02:13pm
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Less Than Five Seconds ...

Regarding slapping the ball away from the inbounder late in the game, isn't there a interpretation that says to ignore if there is less than five seconds left in the game? I can't find that interpretation! Help from Nevadaref please.
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Old Sun Dec 03, 2017, 02:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Doesn't 10-3-5 refer to further delays after the resumption of play procedure is put into effect (free throw, throwins, etc.) and there are further delays, or delays that are not covered by the resumption of play procedure, i.e. free thrower not moving into the semicircle for a free throw (not after a timeout)?
I don't think so, at least not solely. I believe 10-3-5 is intended to also address an egregious action such as throwing the ball into the 10th row or to the other end of the court (preventing the ball from being put in play) vs. a deflection which delays the throwin slightly.
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Old Sun Dec 03, 2017, 02:25pm
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Seventeen Years Ago ...

2000-01 NFHS Interpretations

SITUATION 15: Immediately following a goal in the first quarter by Al, A3 slaps the ball away so that Team B is unable to make a quick throw-in. In the second quarter, A2 reaches through the inbounds side of the throw-in boundary plane. RULING: The official shall sound his/her whistle and go to the table to have the scorer record a team warning for the specific delay after it has occurred. The specific warning is then reported to the head coach of Team A. Any subsequent delay for interfering with the ball following a basket or throw-in plane violation by Team A shall result in a technical foul charged to Team A. COMMENT: The three warning situations listed in Rule 4-46 are treated separately. (4-46; 9-2-11; lO-1-5c,d)

SITUATION 13: A1 is at the free-throw line to shoot a free throw. The lead official bounces the ball to A1, and B1, who is in one of the free-throw lane spaces, a) reaches out and intercepts the bounce pass without breaking the vertical plane of the free-throw lane with either foot and then requests a time-out; or b) breaks the vertical plane of the free-throw lane and intercepts the bounce pass and then requests a time-out. RULING: This is NOT a warning for delay situation, as outlined by Rule 4-46. In both situations, a technical foul shall be called for B1 delaying the game by preventing the ball from being put in play. (10-3-7a)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Doesn't 10-3-5 refer to further delays after the resumption of play procedure is put into effect (free throw, throwins, etc.) and there are further delays, or delays that are not covered by the resumption of play procedure, i.e. free thrower not moving into the semicircle for a free throw (not after a timeout)?
Isn't Situation 13 a good example of 10-3-5?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Dec 03, 2017 at 02:35pm.
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Old Sun Dec 03, 2017, 02:27pm
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Good Point ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I don't think so, at least not solely. I believe 10-3-5 is intended to also address an egregious action such as throwing the ball into the 10th row or to the other end of the court (preventing the ball from being put in play) vs. a deflection which delays the throwin slightly.
I see your point, but the casebook play is very clear: A3 slaps the ball away so that Team B is unable to make a quick throw-in.

Slapped away to the corner, or up to the tenth row, it's still an actionless contest, and no mention is made regarding how far the ball is slapped away.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Dec 03, 2017 at 02:34pm.
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Old Sun Dec 03, 2017, 02:38pm
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Pretty sure there was an older casebook play where this is a direct-to-T play.
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Old Sun Dec 03, 2017, 02:45pm
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Connecticut, The Show Me State ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB View Post
Pretty sure there was an older casebook play where this is a direct-to-T play.
Possibly. Sounds familiar (I can still picture Patrick Ewing, 1985 NCAA Final, Villanova beats Georgetown, doing this, clock didn't stop for made baskets then, no technical, no warning, official just gave the ball to Villanova), but seeing is believing.

Also, wouldn't a newer casebook play "trump" the older casebook play?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Dec 03, 2017 at 03:13pm.
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Old Sun Dec 03, 2017, 02:54pm
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Five Seconds ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Regarding slapping the ball away from the inbounder late in the game, isn't there a interpretation that says to ignore if there is less than five seconds left in the game? I can't find that interpretation! Help from Nevadaref please.
I don't know what year:

9.2.10 SITUATION A: A1 is out of bounds for a throw-in. B1 reaches through
the boundary plane and knocks the ball out of A1’s hands. Team B has not been
warned previously for a throw-in plane infraction. RULING: B1 is charged with a
technical foul and it also results in the official having a team warning recorded
and reported to the head coach. COMMENT: In situations with the clock running
and five or less seconds left in the game, a throw-in plane violation or interfering
with the ball following a goal should be ignored if its only purpose is to stop the
clock. However, if the tactic in any way interferes with the thrower’s efforts to
make a throw-in, a technical foul for delay shall be called even though no previous
warning had been issued. In this situation, if the official stopped the clock
and issued a team warning, it would allow the team to benefit from the tactic. (4-
47-1; 10-1-5b, c; 10-3-10)
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Old Sun Dec 03, 2017, 03:19pm
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Interesting ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
9.2.10 SITUATION A: ... However, if the tactic in any way interferes with the thrower’s efforts to make a throw-in, a technical foul for delay shall be called even though no previous warning had been issued ...
What does this (above) mean? Is this what Camron Rust, and SNIPERBBB, are referring to? Does it only apply to "five or less seconds" (see entire caseplay in above post)?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Dec 03, 2017 at 03:21pm.
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Old Sun Dec 03, 2017, 03:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
What does this (above) mean? Is this what Camron Rust, and SNIPERBBB, are referring to? Does it only apply to "five or less seconds" (see entire caseplay in above post)?
No.

The cases you cite, while interesting and related, do not preclude what I've suggested.
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Old Sun Dec 03, 2017, 04:33pm
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Suggestion ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
The cases you cite, while interesting and related, do not preclude what I've suggested.
I'm not 100% against your "suggestion" to charge an immediate technical foul for a ball that's slapped away to oblivion, I might even react in such a way in the heat of a real game, but I just don't see any caseplay justification for such action, and in fact, see a caseplay that states that we must warn, with the exception of 9.2.10 SITUATION A which seems to indicate that we can charge a technical without warning when there are five seconds or less in a game.

I would like to see something stronger than a "suggestion", maybe a citation like a caseplay, or an annual interpretation.

This is a great start: 10-3 Player Technical A player shall not: Delay the game by acts such as: Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play.

Can we take it to the next level because 10-3 alone seems to contradict Rule 10-1-5 and Caseplay 10.1.5.A, an existing caseplay that's very clear, which say to warn first.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Dec 03, 2017 at 04:36pm.
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