The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 24, 2017, 05:32pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Stupid NFHS Rules Editor ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
Yes, they did.
Why can't the NFHS follow suit?

Young Basketball Official: "So, BillyMac, why did you charge that player with an intentional foul? His foul didn't appear to meet any of requirements of an intentional foul as defined in Rule 4."

BillyMac: "Because the player was swinging his elbows, not excessively, and he accidentally struck, not too severely, the opponent in the head."

Young Basketball Official: "Please show me that in the rulebook or casebook."

BillyMac: "Sure it's right here. Wait? It's not in our 2017-18 rulebook. It's in the 2012-13 rulebook. Check out your 2012-13 rulebook when you get home."

Young Basketball Official: "I don't have a 2012-13 rulebook. Back then, I was still playing basketball in high school. I didn't become a basketball official until last year."

BillyMac: "Well then see Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. He's probably got a copy of that old rulebook up in his attic. I'm sure that he'll be pleased to lend it to you."
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Oct 24, 2017 at 05:48pm.
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 24, 2017, 09:39pm
Lighten up, Francis.
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,604
I'm apparently in the minority, but I liked the guidelines for elbow contact. I would have liked to see them written into both the NCAA and NFHS rules. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask players not to create contact with their elbows.
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 25, 2017, 01:21am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
I'm apparently in the minority, but I liked the guidelines for elbow contact. I would have liked to see them written into both the NCAA and NFHS rules. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask players not to create contact with their elbows.
Really?

Play 1: A1 goes up for a rebound. B1, who was 6 inches shorter, runs in and under A1 for the same rebound while A1 was in the air. A1's elbow comes down on B1's head.

Play 2: A1, running down the court with their arms "swinging" in a normal running motion. B1 lunges at A1. As A1 goes by B1, A1's elbow clips B1's face.

I saw both of those called IF's more than once in big D1 games, even after video review. The reason was that that A1's elbows were "moving" and made contact to the head's of the opponents. That was what those guidelines lead to and neither of them made any sense.

A moving elbow to the head is just not enough to justify an IF. Players move and their elbows move with them. It is unreasonable for there to be no contact with the head. It is reasonable to expect there to be no excessive contact with the elbows.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 25, 2017, 05:55am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Swinging Elbows ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Players move and their elbows move with them.
(NFHS only) Doesn't the intent of the NFHS Point of Emphasis deal with swinging elbows in terms of rotational movement (reference to pivoting hips)? Or does it refer to all elbow movement (up and down while running, or returning to the floor after jumping)?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Oct 25, 2017 at 06:01am.
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 25, 2017, 07:38am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 18,016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Really?

Play 1: A1 goes up for a rebound. B1, who was 6 inches shorter, runs in and under A1 for the same rebound while A1 was in the air. A1's elbow comes down on B1's head.

Play 2: A1, running down the court with their arms "swinging" in a normal running motion. B1 lunges at A1. As A1 goes by B1, A1's elbow clips B1's face.

I saw both of those called IF's more than once in big D1 games, even after video review. The reason was that that A1's elbows were "moving" and made contact to the head's of the opponents. That was what those guidelines lead to and neither of them made any sense.

A moving elbow to the head is just not enough to justify an IF. Players move and their elbows move with them. It is unreasonable for there to be no contact with the head. It is reasonable to expect there to be no excessive contact with the elbows.
While those examples may seem (or be) "unfair" or overly harsh, the rule did cut down on the more dangerous swinging elbows plays AND get (at least some) officials to make a correct IP of FP call when before they would have passed or called a common foul. It also led to (some) officials getting the first foul when B reached in after a rebound, thus preventing the elbow in the first place. It was consistent, and improved safety --both goals of the HS rules.
Reply With Quote
  #21 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 25, 2017, 09:08am
Lighten up, Francis.
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Really?

Play 1: A1 goes up for a rebound. B1, who was 6 inches shorter, runs in and under A1 for the same rebound while A1 was in the air. A1's elbow comes down on B1's head.
Not doubting you at all, but I never saw that. And, in fact, when the rule first came to NCAA-M, this play was specifically discussed as NOT being applicable to the rule. The rule was for "swinging" elbows, not just "moving" elbows.

The same applied (at least, in its original introduction) to your second play. A running motion does not include "swinging" elbows.

Quote:

A moving elbow to the head is just not enough to justify an IF.
Agreed.

Quote:
It is unreasonable for there to be no contact with the head.
I suppose this is true. Accidents happen.

However, I would also argue that it's not unreasonable to expect players to keep their elbows in, and not use them as a tactical advantage.
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 25, 2017, 11:31am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
While those examples may seem (or be) "unfair" or overly harsh, the rule did cut down on the more dangerous swinging elbows plays AND get (at least some) officials to make a correct IP of FP call when before they would have passed or called a common foul. It also led to (some) officials getting the first foul when B reached in after a rebound, thus preventing the elbow in the first place. It was consistent, and improved safety --both goals of the HS rules.
Agree....the application just had unintended consequences. The NCAA largely fixed this a very different way to allow for basketball moves without putting the offense at risk for IF (F1s) in the process.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 25, 2017, 01:22pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Boston area
Posts: 615
The NFHS has reaffirmed the 2012-13 POE on contact with an elbow above the shoulder. According to the IAABO newsletter Sportorials, this occurred in September during an in-person interpretations meeting.

Clarifications offered by the NFHS:
Contact above the shoulders with a moving elbow
With a continued emphasis on reducing concussions and decreasing excessive contact situations, the committee reiterated its prior position:
Rule 9, Section 13:
ART. 1 A player shall not excessively swing his/her arms(s) or elbow(s), even without contacting an opponent. (Violation)
ART. 2 A player may extend arm(s) or elbow(s) to hold the ball under the chin or against the body. (No violation)
ART. 3 Action of arm(s) and elbow(s) resulting from total body movements as in pivoting or movement of the ball incidental to feinting with it, releasing it, or moving it to prevent a held ball or loss of control shall not be considered excessive. (No violation)

Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders and associated penalties:
  • Contact with a stationary elbow of an opponent may be incidental contact or a common foul.
  • An elbow in movement but not excessive should be ruled an intentional foul if contact with an opponent occurs.
  • A moving elbow that is excessive can be either an intentional foul or flagrant personal foul if contact with an opponent occurs.
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 27, 2017, 01:23pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: SLC Utah
Posts: 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPete View Post
There are a dozen or more contributors on this site that could do a much better job of writing and editing the rule book than the NFHS committee.
Kiss up..

Yet I strangely and totally agree...
__________________
BigT "The rookie"
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 27, 2017, 01:35pm
Stubborn Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,517
There was a major emphasis on this in the online state rules meeting for Ohio. On three or four straight slides in red/bold/italic letters it stated that contact with a swinging elbow (it did not simply say a moving elbow) is an IF.
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 27, 2017, 08:51pm
Lighten up, Francis.
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPete View Post
There are a dozen or more contributors on this site that could do a much better job of writing and editing the rule book than the NFHS committee.
At least one of us has applied for the job, but wasn't hired.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
excessively swinging arms/elbows w/ out contact j51969 Basketball 10 Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:23pm
Question - Swinging Elbows - Tech or Violation bradfordwilkins Basketball 5 Sun Feb 20, 2005 09:25pm
Excessively swinging of arms/elbows jritchie Basketball 2 Tue Oct 26, 2004 07:17am
Excessively swinging of arms or elbows, violation question? jritchie Basketball 14 Tue Oct 12, 2004 09:31am
Excessively Swinging Arms or Elbows Fox40 Basketball 10 Fri Oct 22, 1999 01:44pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:46am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1