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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 29, 2017, 10:09am
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Offensive Foul during FT

We had a situation in a high school summer league game last night during a made FT.

While A1 is attempting a FT, A2 fouls B1 after the release of the ball. The FT is made. Does the point count or is the ball dead when the offense fouls?

I believe it may fall within 6.7.7 but I am struggling to interpret.
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Old Thu Jun 29, 2017, 10:32am
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Let's look at that rule:

Quote:
Rule 7, SECTION 7 DEAD BALL The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:

ART. 7 . . . A foul, other than player-control or team-control, occurs (see exceptions a, b and c below).
Is this a team control foul or player control foul? Is there team or player control once a try is in flight?

If this is not a team/player control situation, consider the exceptions:

Quote:
EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when:

a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.
b. Article 5 or 7 occurs while a try for a free throw is in flight.
c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal ....
Exception a clearly does not apply since it is not a field goal.

Exception c clearly does not apply since the foul was not by an opponent of the shooter.

But, what about exception b? Does it fit? If so, then the ball does not become dead until the try ends due to the exception.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 29, 2017, 12:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by champion View Post
We had a situation in a high school summer league game last night during a made FT.

While A1 is attempting a FT, A2 fouls B1 after the release of the ball. The FT is made. Does the point count or is the ball dead when the offense fouls?

I believe it may fall within 6.7.7 but I am struggling to interpret.
Camron broke down the rule, but the first thing you have to remember is that there is no Team Control once a try is released, so there can be no "offensive" fouls (Team Control nor Player Control).
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Old Fri Jun 30, 2017, 08:42am
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At a camp you would likely be told to have a more patient whistle, since a common foul during a made free throw attempt doesn't really create any advantage.

There's my holier-than-thou post for the day.
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Old Fri Jun 30, 2017, 09:14am
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To make sure...

If the foul occurred during the last of A1's free throws, after counting the made FT, either give the ball to Team B along the endline or award any bonus free throws.

If A1 is due another free throw, clear the lane and administer it. Afterwards, either give Team B the ball on the endline or award bonus free throws.
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Old Fri Jun 30, 2017, 09:52am
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Side track:

Scenario: out of control shooter releases ball before crashing into defender with LGP. After the foul by the shooter, the ball falls through the net.

IIRC, it used to be that we would count the basket but still charge the common foul, possibly resulting in bonus free throws. I thought that had changed. But exception (a) would seem to say that the ball does not become dead on the charge by the shooter. Could someone be so kind as to explain the application in that scenario.
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Old Fri Jun 30, 2017, 10:01am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker View Post
Side track:

Scenario: out of control shooter releases ball before crashing into defender with LGP. After the foul by the shooter, the ball falls through the net.

IIRC, it used to be that we would count the basket but still charge the common foul, possibly resulting in bonus free throws. I thought that had changed. But exception (a) would seem to say that the ball does not become dead on the charge by the shooter. Could someone be so kind as to explain the application in that scenario.
When an airborne shooter commits a common foul, it is a player control foul. A player control foul always kills the ball immediately, in NFHS, NCAA-M, and NCAA-W (NCAA-M is the most recent addition to this). Heck, even if the ball were to somehow go in the basket before the PC foul, you would still wave it off.
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Old Fri Jun 30, 2017, 12:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker View Post
IIRC, it used to be that we would count the basket but still charge the common foul, possibly resulting in bonus free throws.
It hasn't been that way in HS for at least 20 years or so. What you describe was the NCAAM rule.
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Old Fri Jun 30, 2017, 06:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
It hasn't been that way in HS for at least 20 years or so. What you describe was the NCAAM rule.
I know -- it was more than that long ago that I played! I loved those opportunities to take a charge on defense and shoot FTs!

The airborne shooter being a PC is what I was missing (thanks SC official!) -- without that, the excerpts above would suggest it was still that way, which is why i was perplexed.
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Old Fri Jun 30, 2017, 11:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker View Post
Side track:

Scenario: out of control shooter releases ball before crashing into defender with LGP. After the foul by the shooter, the ball falls through the net.

IIRC, it used to be that we would count the basket but still charge the common foul, possibly resulting in bonus free throws. I thought that had changed. But exception (a) would seem to say that the ball does not become dead on the charge by the shooter. Could someone be so kind as to explain the application in that scenario.
I was reading this scenario differently from the others who have already replied. A1 releases try, not an airborne shooter anymore, continues and knocks B2 to the ground. I suppose you could count the basket and B2 could shoot FTs if in the bonus. Not realistic but hey, it's the offseason and there isn't a lot to talk about.
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Old Sat Jul 01, 2017, 12:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
It hasn't been that way in HS for at least 20 years or so. What you describe was the NCAAM rule.
Longer than that. I have been officiating over 20 years and the rule was never that way since I became an official at the high school level.

Peace
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Old Sat Jul 01, 2017, 06:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mregor View Post
I was reading this scenario differently from the others who have already replied. A1 releases try, not an airborne shooter anymore, continues and knocks B2 to the ground. I suppose you could count the basket and B2 could shoot FTs if in the bonus. Not realistic but hey, it's the offseason and there isn't a lot to talk about.
Are you saying that A1 has already returned to the ground when he knocks B2 down? Because releasing the try is what begins airborne shooter status, not ends it.
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Old Sat Jul 01, 2017, 07:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mregor View Post
I was reading this scenario differently from the others who have already replied. A1 releases try, not an airborne shooter anymore, continues and knocks B2 to the ground. I suppose you could count the basket and B2 could shoot FTs if in the bonus. Not realistic but hey, it's the offseason and there isn't a lot to talk about.


You're correct. Once AS status ends, the application becomes as that for anyone else who commits a common foul while a try is in flight.

You probably wouldn't see this often, but I could picture a perimeter shot where the shooter A1 returns to the floor and then busts it to follow his shot, knocking over B1 in the process before the ball goes in. In that case, count the goal and report the foul. Ball OOB to B or bonus FTs if applicable.

As was said before, calling a foul on the shooting team here should be as patient a whistle as possible. But if the contact rattles the whole building....well every once in a while you have to call those kind of fouls.


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Old Sat Jul 01, 2017, 11:23am
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Airborne Shooter ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker View Post
... out of control shooter releases ball before crashing into defender ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mregor View Post
A1 releases try, not an airborne shooter anymore, continues and knocks B2 to the ground.
4-1 AIRBORNE SHOOTER
ART. 1 An airborne shooter is a player who has released the ball on a try
for a goal or has tapped the ball and has not returned to the floor.
ART. 2 The airborne shooter is considered to be in the act of shooting.

4-20-6: A player-control foul is a common foul committed by a player while
he/she is in control of the ball or by an airborne shooter.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Jul 01, 2017 at 11:27am.
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Old Tue Jul 04, 2017, 10:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mregor View Post
A1 releases try, not an airborne shooter anymore, continues and knocks B2 to the ground.
Are you saying he's not an airborne shooter after he releases the shot or are you presenting a scenario where he returns to the floor and then charges into the defender?
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