Offensive Foul during FT

[SC Official]

At a camp you would likely be told to have a more patient whistle, since a common foul during a made free throw attempt doesn't really create any advantage.

There's my holier-than-thou post for the day.

[BryanV21]

To make sure...

If the foul occurred during the last of A1's free throws, after counting the made FT, either give the ball to Team B along the endline or award any bonus free throws.

If A1 is due another free throw, clear the lane and administer it. Afterwards, either give Team B the ball on the endline or award bonus free throws.

[so cal lurker]

Side track:

Scenario: out of control shooter releases ball before crashing into defender with LGP. After the foul by the shooter, the ball falls through the net.

IIRC, it used to be that we would count the basket but still charge the common foul, possibly resulting in bonus free throws. I thought that had changed. But exception (a) would seem to say that the ball does not become dead on the charge by the shooter. Could someone be so kind as to explain the application in that scenario.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

Side track:

Scenario: out of control shooter releases ball before crashing into defender with LGP. After the foul by the shooter, the ball falls through the net.

IIRC, it used to be that we would count the basket but still charge the common foul, possibly resulting in bonus free throws. I thought that had changed. But exception (a) would seem to say that the ball does not become dead on the charge by the shooter. Could someone be so kind as to explain the application in that scenario.

When an airborne shooter commits a common foul, it is a player control foul. A player control foul always kills the ball immediately, in NFHS, NCAA-M, and NCAA-W (NCAA-M is the most recent addition to this). Heck, even if the ball were to somehow go in the basket before the PC foul, you would still wave it off.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

IIRC, it used to be that we would count the basket but still charge the common foul, possibly resulting in bonus free throws.

It hasn't been that way in HS for at least 20 years or so. What you describe was the NCAAM rule.

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It hasn't been that way in HS for at least 20 years or so. What you describe was the NCAAM rule.

I know -- it was more than that long ago that I played! I loved those opportunities to take a charge on defense and shoot FTs!

The airborne shooter being a PC is what I was missing (thanks SC official!) -- without that, the excerpts above would suggest it was still that way, which is why i was perplexed.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It hasn't been that way in HS for at least 20 years or so. What you describe was the NCAAM rule.

Longer than that. I have been officiating over 20 years and the rule was never that way since I became an official at the high school level.

Peace

[Mregor]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

Side track:

Scenario: out of control shooter releases ball before crashing into defender with LGP. After the foul by the shooter, the ball falls through the net.

IIRC, it used to be that we would count the basket but still charge the common foul, possibly resulting in bonus free throws. I thought that had changed. But exception (a) would seem to say that the ball does not become dead on the charge by the shooter. Could someone be so kind as to explain the application in that scenario.

I was reading this scenario differently from the others who have already replied. A1 releases try, not an airborne shooter anymore, continues and knocks B2 to the ground. I suppose you could count the basket and B2 could shoot FTs if in the bonus. Not realistic but hey, it's the offseason and there isn't a lot to talk about.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Mregor

I was reading this scenario differently from the others who have already replied. A1 releases try, not an airborne shooter anymore, continues and knocks B2 to the ground. I suppose you could count the basket and B2 could shoot FTs if in the bonus. Not realistic but hey, it's the offseason and there isn't a lot to talk about.

Are you saying that A1 has already returned to the ground when he knocks B2 down? Because releasing the try is what begins airborne shooter status, not ends it.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Mregor

I was reading this scenario differently from the others who have already replied. A1 releases try, not an airborne shooter anymore, continues and knocks B2 to the ground. I suppose you could count the basket and B2 could shoot FTs if in the bonus. Not realistic but hey, it's the offseason and there isn't a lot to talk about.

You're correct. Once AS status ends, the application becomes as that for anyone else who commits a common foul while a try is in flight.

You probably wouldn't see this often, but I could picture a perimeter shot where the shooter A1 returns to the floor and then busts it to follow his shot, knocking over B1 in the process before the ball goes in. In that case, count the goal and report the foul. Ball OOB to B or bonus FTs if applicable.

As was said before, calling a foul on the shooting team here should be as patient a whistle as possible. But if the contact rattles the whole building....well every once in a while you have to call those kind of fouls.


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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

... out of control shooter releases ball before crashing into defender ...

Originally Posted by Mregor

A1 releases try, not an airborne shooter anymore, continues and knocks B2 to the ground.

4-1 AIRBORNE SHOOTER
ART. 1 An airborne shooter is a player who has released the ball on a try
for a goal or has tapped the ball and has not returned to the floor.
ART. 2 The airborne shooter is considered to be in the act of shooting.

4-20-6: A player-control foul is a common foul committed by a player while
he/she is in control of the ball or by an airborne shooter.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Mregor

A1 releases try, not an airborne shooter anymore, continues and knocks B2 to the ground.

Are you saying he's not an airborne shooter after he releases the shot or are you presenting a scenario where he returns to the floor and then charges into the defender?

[bucky]

Originally Posted by SC Official

At a camp you would likely be told to have a more patient whistle, since a common foul during a made free throw attempt doesn't really create any advantage.

Kinda. I hate the type of contact not called during made free throws. Indeed, no "physical" advantage is gained but so often the player fouled will still get upset. He/She may look at the ref and mutter something or, simply "remember" the player that fouled them and consider retaliation. To me, if my opponent gets upset/disgruntled toward me as a player or ref, then I have indeed gained a "mental" advantage.

Just a thought...

[deecee]

Originally Posted by bucky

Kinda. I hate the type of contact not called during made free throws. Indeed, no "physical" advantage is gained but so often the player fouled will still get upset. He/She may look at the ref and mutter something or, simply "remember" the player that fouled them and consider retaliation. To me, if my opponent gets upset/disgruntled toward me as a player or ref, then I have indeed gained a "mental" advantage.

Just a thought...

We don't officiate mental advantages. Some people just have thinner skin. Not our problem. Sounds like the kid needs some mental jiujitsu here.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by deecee

We don't officiate mental advantages. Some people just have thinner skin. Not our problem. Sounds like the kid needs some mental jiujitsu here.

We don't? So do you allow unlimited trash talk? Do you allow any sort of verbal threats because no physical advantage was gained?

I can see it now...A1 at the FT line and B2 walks near him before shooting calling him, loudly, every name in the book, making comments about his religion/ethnicity/gender/sexual orientation and promising to meet him in the parking lot after the game if he makes it. Team A coach inquires and you say "There was no physical advantage gained and A1 needs mental jujitsu." Should go over well.

I know, I know, to extreme. Forgive me.