Last Night

[IncorrectCall]

Originally Posted by bucky

If the hold involved a grab, then yes.

These are different things?

[MD Longhorn]

I hate to defend this ... as it's ridiculous, but you can have a hold (in basketball) without the player grasping with his fingers, can't you? Wouldn't putting your arms out and preventing a player from going past you be considered a hold ... without it being "grabbing"?

(I would note than in neither case ... grasping or not grasping, I would never call a normal hold as an intentional foul, as bucky suggests).

[bucky]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I hate to defend this ... as it's ridiculous, but you can have a hold (in basketball) without the player grasping with his fingers, can't you? Wouldn't putting your arms out and preventing a player from going past you be considered a hold ... without it being "grabbing"?

(I would note than in neither case ... grasping or not grasping, I would never call a normal hold as an intentional foul, as bucky suggests).

I was thinking similarly.

I too would not call a "normal hold" intentional. Not sure where I suggested that but whateves.

And as far as "pinning" someone's arm, why do I need to call that a "hold"? Why not illegal use of hands? Or, by definition, go ahead and call hold, but that does not make it intentional.

Someone listed the definition of hold, which differs from that in basketball, at least NCCAM. Holding is simply interfering with freedom of movement, very similar to the definition of blocking. So, interfering with freedom of movement, looks to me to not necessarily involve grabbing.

And, yes MD, comes down to semantics. I feel it does fit as described in the rule book. Have to agree to disagree. Not sure why everyone is wasting time on this.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bucky

Why not illegal use of hands?

(Searching for that term in my rulebook ... can't find it...)

Not sure why everyone is wasting time on this.

Because you claimed that you would call a simple hold (if it included grasping) an Intentional Foul.

It's not.

Not even close, and not even if there is INTENT.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

(Searching for that term in my rulebook ... can't find it...)

Because you claimed that you would call a simple hold (if it included grasping) an Intentional Foul.

It's not.

Not even close, and not even if there is INTENT.

I checked all of my posts. None had any that involved "claim" or "simple". Those are your words, not mine.

My initial response was to "..accidentally grabbing someone's face or neck" and I expressed it as my opinion. I even used the words "Seems like.." to express a generality. Now, a whole lotta posts later, you are berating me regarding....yup, you guessed it, my opinion.

Nice.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bucky

I checked all of my posts. None had any that involved "claim" or "simple". Those are your words, not mine.

My initial response was to "..accidentally grabbing someone's face or neck" and I expressed it as my opinion. I even used the words "Seems like.." to express a generality. Now, a whole lotta posts later, you are berating me regarding....yup, you guessed it, my opinion.

Nice.

See posts 23 and 25 (and the posts just before that you were saying "Yes" to, to keep it in context).

(I'm not berating you.)

[bucky]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

See posts 23 and 25 (and the posts just before that you were saying "Yes" to, to keep it in context).

(I'm not berating you.)

I checked posts 23 and 25. Could not find those words (claim, simple) in those posts.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Did you seriously just say that you were being berated? And you are the one who dragged out this subject, now you want to know why the subject is being dragged out.

It's interaction like this that makes one question whether someone is really an official or just a fan.

I do not feel that I dragged it out. I offered an opinion as a response (post 20). JAR offered a reply in post 21. Adam dragged it out, imo, with post 22 by asking a question. You are correct, it is interaction like this that makes me question whether someone is really an official or just a fan. I thought it was perfectly acceptable to offer opinions on plays, not criticize officials/crews. I offered my opinion and got criticized. So, yea, I'd call it berating given the words and length of time spent on it.

Gotta agree with BigCat, move on to something else.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bucky

I checked all of my posts. None had any that involved "claim" or "simple". Those are your words, not mine.

My initial response was to "..accidentally grabbing someone's face or neck" and I expressed it as my opinion. I even used the words "Seems like.." to express a generality. Now, a whole lotta posts later, you are berating me regarding....yup, you guessed it, my opinion.

Nice.

Did you seriously just say that you were being berated? And you are the one who dragged out this subject, now you want to know why the subject is being dragged out.

It's interaction like this that makes one question whether someone is really an official or just a fan.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bucky

Why not illegal use of hands?

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

(Searching for that term in my rulebook ... can't find it...)

You need to look a little harder....it is there.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You need to look a little harder....it is there.

4-24. Bucky you did say a grab would be an intentional foul. You may have meant something else but it is there. Having said that, we all know that most fouls committed are done on purpose if you look at a dictionary definition. Defender putting two hands on defender all way to hole is not an accident. Player shoves another from behind to get a rebound. That's on purpose/intentional but we dont call it that.

Just because there's a grab doesn't mean there's an intentional foul. I know you know that. i think we should move on to something else.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by bucky

I was thinking similarly.

Why not illegal use of hands?

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

(Searching for that term in my rulebook ... can't find it...)

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You need to look a little harder....it is there.

Basketball Officials Manual 2015-17. Signal 31