NCAA Tournament (Elite 8 Games) Video Requests - Saturday and Sunday

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

UNC v Kentucky
14:30 in the 2nd half.
UNC player at the top of the key.
Did he travel or was the ball knocked out by the defender?

Peace

[ODog]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Peace

Ball does get knocked away by defender ... once it hits the floor. And yes, that does matter. Sure, Jackson would have recovered it, thus making it a travel (dribble started with pivot foot off the floor), but Monk saved him from that by poking the ball away. Good patient whistle in no-calling this.

The dropping of the ball is nothing. It's what happens next.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ODog

Ball does get knocked away by defender ... once it hits the floor. And yes, that does matter. Sure, Jackson would have recovered it, thus making it a travel (dribble started with pivot foot off the floor), but Monk saved him from that by poking the ball away. Good patient whistle in no-calling this.

The dropping of the ball is nothing. It's what happens next.

I do not see the defender touching the ball. I see the NC player moving the ball on his own to avoid the defender. I think that is a travel. Again, the angle was not the best as the official's angle, but I have seen this play just in this tournament not called a violation, which actually surprises me as it is clearly a violation of the rules to jump up and then drop it when you think it will be blocked, which is a start of a dribble.

Peace

[ODog]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not see the defender touching the ball. I see the NC player moving the ball on his own to avoid the defender. I think that is a travel. Again, the angle was not the best as the official's angle, but I have seen this play just in this tournament not called a violation, which actually surprises me as it is clearly a violation of the rules to jump up and then drop it when you think it will be blocked, which is a start of a dribble.

You misread my post. I did not say the defender knocked the ball out of the shooter's hands. He didn't. No additional angle necessary. Not in dispute. Shooter drops it of his own volition and without assistance.

BUT the defender IS the first to touch it after the drop, which negates it being a dribble. (That part could require a better angle, but Monk from UK touching it first is how I'm seeing it. And apparently the officials too ... unless they were just caught off guard by the goofy play, which happens to all of us). Not until the offensive player touches the ball again after the drop is this technically "a dribble."

And if that never happened, this is nothing, and perhaps the reason there was no whistle.

Until the offensive player recovers that ball, it's just a horrible "pass," or nothing.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by ODog

You misread my post. I did not say the defender knocked the ball out of the shooter's hands. He didn't. No additional angle necessary. Not in dispute. Shooter drops it of his own volition and without assistance.

BUT the defender IS the first to touch it after the drop, which negates it being a dribble. (That part could require a better angle, but Monk from UK touching it first is how I'm seeing it. And apparently the officials too ... unless they were just caught off guard by the goofy play, which happens to all of us). Not until the offensive player touches the ball again after the drop is this technically "a dribble."

And if that never happened, this is nothing, and perhaps the reason there was no whistle.

Until the offensive player recovers that ball, it's just a horrible "pass," or nothing.

A. You are incorrect, by rule, as to what constitutes a dribble.
B. John Higgins clearly indicates a defensive deflection prior to that point in the play.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ODog

You misread my post. I did not say the defender knocked the ball out of the shooter's hands. He didn't. No additional angle necessary. Not in dispute. Shooter drops it of his own volition and without assistance.

BUT the defender IS the first to touch it after the drop, which negates it being a dribble. (That part could require a better angle, but Monk from UK touching it first is how I'm seeing it. And apparently the officials too ... unless they were just caught off guard by the goofy play, which happens to all of us). Not until the offensive player touches the ball again after the drop is this technically "a dribble."

And if that never happened, this is nothing, and perhaps the reason there was no whistle.

Until the offensive player recovers that ball, it's just a horrible "pass," or nothing.

Basically what he has done is start a dribble. You cannot move your pivot before starting a dribble. Whether the ball is touched is not necessarily relevant to this play if his intent was to start a dribble. The only issue that would have been relevant if during the jump the ball was knocked out of his hand. Now I am not so sure that took place here. And I was also referencing that this has taken place several times just this tournament where it was not properly called. Some of it might have been angle or the official might have not been sure if it was done on purpose and the defender dislodged the ball.

And even a "pass" can be illegal if you dribbled under the right circumstances. So be careful with that being the standard.

Peace

[bucky]

Originally Posted by ODog

Ball does get knocked away by defender ... once it hits the floor. And yes, that does matter. Sure, Jackson would have recovered it, thus making it a travel (dribble started with pivot foot off the floor), but Monk saved him from that by poking the ball away. Good patient whistle in no-calling this.

The dropping of the ball is nothing. It's what happens next.

Yes, player jumped in the air and released ball to floor..all legal. Then, defender touches ball first. No travel on all that however.....looks like a technical travel when he initially receives the pass.

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by bucky

Yes, player jumped in the air and released ball to floor..all legal. Then, defender touches ball first. No travel on all that however.....looks like a technical travel when he initially receives the pass.

The problem lies in the definition of dribble, which begins with the release of the ball. That is what a couple of posters are referring to as by rule. By the language of the rule, if the ball was released as a dribble, he illegally began a dribble after lifting his pivot foot and what comes after doesn't change that.

Section 13. Dribble
Art. 1. A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats,
pushes or taps the ball to the playing court once or several times.
Art. 2. The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing, tapping or batting
the ball to the playing court.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

if the ball was released as a dribble, he illegally began a dribble after lifting his pivot foot and what comes after doesn't change that.

See what you are saying but don't quite agree. I feel that what comes after does determine everything. It can't be considered a dribble unless he is first to touch the ball after releasing it and it hitting the floor. Since defender was first to touch ball after it was released, there is nothing illegal about this play. We have all seen the case where a player jumps to shoot, is going to get blocked, and releases the ball to the floor as a dribble, as it comes back to his possession. Classic travel case. (always good entertainment to have this happen in a heated pick-up game and watch the argument unfold)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bucky

See what you are saying but don't quite agree. I feel that what comes after does determine everything. It can't be considered a dribble unless he is first to touch the ball after releasing it and it hitting the floor. Since defender was first to touch ball after it was released, there is nothing illegal about this play. We have all seen the case where a player jumps to shoot, is going to get blocked, and releases the ball to the floor as a dribble, as it comes back to his possession. Classic travel case. (always good entertainment to have this happen in a heated pick-up game and watch the argument unfold)

It is either a dribble the moment it leaves the player's hands or it isn't. Where it goes next really isn't relevant. If it goes to another player, it sometimes just becomes an interrupted dribble. Sometimes, it is unclear whether the player was passing to a nearby player but if there is no teammate in the area where the ball is released, it is, by definition a dribble when the player deliberately releases the ball to the floor and not towards another player. Waiting for another player to come get the ball doesn't make it a pass. If they wanted it to be a pass, they'd throw it towards someone, not to the floor at their feet.

[BillyMac]

A reference to Robert Frost on the Forum. Is this a first?

Starting a dribble ... illegal dribble ... Wait to see what happens next ... Don't have to wait to see what happens next ...

We've been down this road before. Same road. Same fork. It hasn't changed.

Maybe we can get Theresia Wynns to walk down this path with us. She'll know the right way.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It is either a dribble the moment it leaves the player's hands or it isn't. Where it goes next really isn't relevant. If it goes to another player, it sometimes just becomes an interrupted dribble. Sometimes, it is unclear whether the player was passing to a nearby player but if there is no teammate in the area where the ball is released, it is, by definition a dribble when the player deliberately releases the ball to the floor and not towards another player. Waiting for another player to come get the ball doesn't make it a pass. If they wanted it to be a pass, they'd throw it towards someone, not to the floor at their feet.

Gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. Your first statement is simply false. Your own examples even illustrate that idea. Below are some more:

If A1 bounces the ball to A2, it is a pass when A2 touches the ball, not when the ball leaves A1's hands.

When A1 bounces the ball to himself, it is a dribble when A1 touches the ball, not when A1 releases the ball.

If A1, in the air falling OOB, blindly throws the ball IB, it is a pass when A2 touches the ball, not when the ball leaves A1's hands on the save.

If A1, in the air falling OOB, blindly throws the ball IB, it is a dribble when A2 returns IB and touches(by continuing to dribble) the ball, not when the ball leaves A1's hands on the save.

There are also cases (one previously mentioned) that support all of this.

If an official calls traveling any time a player, with the ball in the air, releases it to the floor, and does not touch the ball, that would be flat out wrong/incorrect.

Imagine this scenario: Team A is up by 3 points with 5 seconds to go and is inbounding on the endline opposite their goal. Team A has to go the full length of the court. All 10 players are in the BC of Team A with Team B applying strong, full court pressure. A1 throws an inbound pass towards A2, somewhat high in the air. A2 jumps, gets control of the ball in the air, and instinctively, while still in the air, heaves the ball down court, disallowing B1 the chance to foul A2 or steal the ball, and knowing the time will expire. The ball, in the air, finally hits in Team A's FC, with 2 seconds to go. You call travel. Team A coach comes unglued, his head literally pops off, and every atom in his body simultaneously combusts (nice visual huh?). You rush over and explain to the flames, that once the ball left A2's hands, where the ball went next was not relevant. You go on to say that since there were no teammates in the vicinity of the ball, it had to have been a dribble by definition, ergo, it is illegal to start a dribble without a pivot foot, and traveling is a result. Video of play goes viral along with official defending himself ad nauseam on officiating.com

Extreme example, I know but I felt it illustrated everything the best.

Hey wait, I didn't mean to respond to Camron. Oh no! Broke my own rule!

And I probably have another fine coming for too many words. It took me so long, I did not even get a chance to see Billy's response! Ugh! Would have saved me!