1.9 Sec left in Playoff game TO Granted with none left leads to Coach Ejection (Video

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bucky

Everything else? They can only go to table to seek info on correctable error situations. Anything else, like checking on number of TO's, is a technical foul.

By case anyway.....This falls directly under the "If some rules are never enforced, then why do they exist?" category.

Yes, they can go to the table, which often in my experience is literally right next to the benches, along with people from both teams sharing that information. This also does not require anyone to physically walk to the table or even get up to have information shared with them. It is only a T if you leave the coaching box, which is pure semantics as benches are usually so close to the table they could reach out and touch the table without violating any rule. Coaches or assistants all the time ask, "How many fouls does he have?" And the table talks back to them with the information they asked for.

Also not sure what rules you suggest are never enforced. The rule for timeouts requires the scorer to inform the officials that they are out of timeouts. I have had this discussion here before, often that is clearly not necessary as they already know they are out of timeouts as the conversation between the officials and the table on this matter is not a secret. Assistants also know they are out of timeouts and they make it clear they are out of timeouts or they ask on their own. Heck I have had opponents tell me that the other team is out of timeouts. This is not rocket science here, people count timeouts just like they count other things. We really make stuff like this too complicated. At least that is in my experience.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The rule for timeouts requires the scorer to inform the officials that they are out of timeouts.

Almost got it, don't forget about the rest of the rule:

NFHS: The scorer shall: Record the time-out information charged to each team (who and
when) and notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is
granted its final allotted charged time-out.

Note: I don't believe that this happened in this specific situation (the coach was probably informed), but if either the table, or the officials, didn't do what they are, by (NFHS) rule, supposed to do, then there is some blame, in varying amounts, to be shared by the coach, the player, the table, and the officials, for the disaster that followed, mainly on the coach, and the player, but if I were that official who was informed by the table and then failed to inform the coach, I would not have a totally guilt free drive home that night, "Man, I wish I had informed the coach that he had used all of his timeouts". (I don't know what the NCAA rule is.) If the table does what it's supposed to do, and if the officials do what they are supposed to do, then it takes both of them out of the equation, blameless for the subsequent disaster, putting 100% of the blame on the coach and/or the player.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Note: I don't believe that this happened in this specific situation (the coach was probably informed), but if either the table, or the officials, didn't do what they are, by (NFHS) rule, supposed to do, then there is some blame, in varying amounts, to be shared by the coach, the player, the table, and the officials, for the disaster that followed, mainly on the coach, and the player, but if I were that official who was informed by the table and then failed to inform the coach, I would not have a totally guilt free drive home that night, "Man, I wish I had informed the coach that he had used all of his timeouts". (I don't know what the NCAA rule is.) If the table does what it's supposed to do, and if the officials do what they are supposed to do, then it takes both of them out of the equation, blameless for the subsequent disaster, putting 100% of the blame on the coach and/or the player.

How in the world do you know who was informed or not informed? If they were using the NF procedure to a tee, then they do not call the timeout? What? You realize in playoff games kids "pucker up" and panic when the game is on the line right? You realize that players often make very bad decisions when things are well known right?

And I would not have any guilt what so ever on any level. It is your responsibility as a team to keep track of things in the game. If you don't, then shame on you. If you do not know what timeouts you have used any more than you do not know how many fouls a player has, then same on you. I would feel just fine as I have done many many playoff games and kids and coaches often lose their heads. And I would not care one bit if we told them or not about their timeout situation. Again, one of the dumbest things I think some worry about. They know every other darn thing, we have to tell them they are out of timeouts for them to really know? OK.

Peace

[OKREF]

Did they shoot enough free throws? Weren't there 4 T's?

1 for the extra timeout
2 for the head coach
1 for #1 getting ejected

Shouldn't they have shot 8 free throws?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Did they shoot enough free throws? Weren't there 4 T's?



1 for the extra timeout

2 for the head coach

1 for #1 getting ejected



Shouldn't they have shot 8 free throws?

#1 wasn't ejected.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Rich

#1 wasn't ejected.

Ahh, ok. My mistake.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... we have to tell them they are out of timeouts ...?

By rule, absolutely yes.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

How in the world do you know who was informed or not informed?

It's actually quite simple, if one of the officials informed the team/coach that he had no timeouts left, as required by the rules, then the officials would know 100% for sure who was informed.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is your responsibility as a team to keep track of things in the game. If you don't, then shame on you.

True, but also, shame on the official (in a hypothetical situation, not like the one in this thread) for not knowing the rule, or (worse) choosing not to do what officials are required to do by the rule, after being informed by the table that the team has used all of their allotted timeouts and then informing the team/coach of the same.

It's not a flexible mechanic, it's a rule.

The scorer shall: Record the time-out information charged to each team (who and
when) and notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is
granted its final allotted charged time-out.

This isn't some type of courtesy that officials extend to teams and coaches, it's a long recognized rule that most of us have followed dozens (maybe more) of times. In my thirty-six years, as the calling official granting, and reporting, the final allotted timeout, and being informed as such by the table, I have never, ever, failed to inform the head coach, either during, or immediately after, the timeout, or, failing to get the attention of the head coach without interrupting his huddle, informing the assistant coach. As the non calling official, if the situation presents itself, I have asked my partner, "Did you inform the coach?".

If the officials are informed by the table and they choose not to inform the team/coach, then they have simply kicked a rule (and in 99.9% (maybe more) of all cases, this doesn't result in any negative ramifications).

Now, some officials do go beyond the rule and extend the courtesy of communicating to teams/coaches how many timeouts (before using all of them) they have remaining, "Coach, you have one sixty second timeout left", but that's outside of the rules, isn't required by the NFHS, and is more of a personal and/or local custom (maybe for building good rapport with the coaches). I don't do that, and my local board officials are instructed not to do that. It's a classic "When in Rome ..." situation.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If one of the officials informed the coach that he had no timeouts left, as required by the rules, then the officials would know 100% for sure who was informed.



Shame on your for not doing what officials are required to do by rule, after being informed by the table that the team has used all of their allotted timeouts and then informing the coach of the same.

It's not a flexible mechanic, it's a rule.

We do it, but if it's missed it doesn't relieve the team of having the responsibility of keeping track. One of my teams had 6 assistant coaches last night, after all.

Like Rut, I wouldn't lose much sleep.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich

We do it, but if it's missed it doesn't relieve the team of having the responsibility of keeping track. Like Rut, I wouldn't lose much sleep.

Agree that it's also on the team/coaches, especially in a high school varsity game.

Rich wouldn't lose much sleep over kicking this rule that resulted in a disaster at the end of a game.

Neither would I. Some, but not much.

My worst call of the season, and it wasn't even my call. Late in a game my partner (a highly regarded state tournament official) kicks a rule regarding a double free throw violation and how to penalize the violation. I wasn't aware of his call, because I was keeping my eye on my own primary, but I could tell from his voice and body language that he was only 95% certain of the call, especially in his dealing with two questions from the coach. After the game, discussing the call, we discovered that he kicked the rule, costing the losing team (in an overtime game) a free throw, maybe two free throws, and the arrow, near the end of regulation. I should have approached him with a "What did you have?" which would have saved us from kicking the rule. Instead, I just let him make his call, make his explanation to the coach, and I just put the ball in play as if he knew 100% what he was doing. The losing coach politely approached us in the locker room after the game with a question and we had to admit that we kicked the call. Lose sleep? No. But I could have been a better partner.

Retrospective, and some feelings of remorse, guilt, conscience, or responsibility (I couldn't come up with the right word, so I used four, but these words are too strong so take them down a notch to get my meaning) after kicking a call are good things for officials. It's makes us better officials and demonstrates that we care about doing our jobs well, in the past, in the present, and in the future.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

It's actually quite simple, if one of the officials informed the team/coach that he had no timeouts left, as required by the rules, then the officials would know 100% for sure who was informed.

How in the heck would an official have any idea who is informed once you tell a coach or tell and assistant their timeout situation? I am not staying in the darn huddle for them to tell everyone what they are going to tell them. That is about as dumb as anything I have heard on this site if you think any official is hanging out to figure out if all team members (who might not even be next to the coach in the first place). That is like telling me that the official knows the play that was called during the timeout. There is no way unless you hanging out in the huddle to know what was said to players.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

It's not a flexible mechanic, it's a rule.

Yes a rule that has no specifics on how to tell them or what to say. Or even where to tell them. So your assessment of this is quite overstated. And if you are worried about that, then you will just have to be worried. I could not care less either way. Been in some high profile situations in my career and the last thing I am worried about is what a coach is told about in a game about their timeout situations.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

This isn't some type of courtesy that officials extend to teams and coaches, it's a long recognized rule that most of us have followed dozens (maybe more) of times. In my thirty-six years, as the calling official granting, and reporting, the final allotted timeout, and being informed as such by the table, I have never, ever, failed to inform the head coach, either during, or immediately after, the timeout, or, failing to get the attention of the head coach without interrupting his huddle, informing the assistant coach. As the non calling official, if the situation presents itself, I have asked my partner, "Did you inform the coach?".

I have been doing this for 20 and never had many officials worry about this. Again usually the table people are telling us when they have many timeouts left and it is long before they are out in the game. Usually there are situations that are communicated related to how many "30 second timeouts" are left.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If the officials are informed by the table and they choose not to inform the team/coach, then they have simply kicked a rule (and in 99.9% (maybe more) of all cases, this doesn't result in any negative ramifications).

First of all, no one here brought up anything about this but you (it appears). That was not the issue of this thread or even the accusation of the team. You are the only one making this part of this an issue. The issue was whether or not the player requested a timeout, which appears to be the case in several videos about the topic. But somehow you are turned this (like you do other things) into something that has nothing to do with the actual topic. Congrats.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Now, some officials do go beyond the rule and extend the courtesy of communicating to teams/coaches how many timeouts (before using all of them) they have remaining, "Coach, you have one sixty second timeout left", but that's outside of the rules, isn't required by the NFHS, and is more of a personal and/or local custom (maybe for building good rapport with the coaches). I don't do that, and my local board officials are instructed not to do that. It's a classic "When in Rome ..." situation.

Yes, that is true, but that is not what appears to have happened her. And I do not care what your local board does, because I do not work for one entity that tells us anything other than the IHSA. And they do not assign most of our games. And I have yet to see an email or comment about how officials handled a timeout situation when a team is out as an emphasis of doing our job.

Peace

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And I do not care what your local board does, because I do not work for one entity that tells us anything other than the IHSA. And they do not assign most of our games. And I have yet to see an email or comment about how officials handled a timeout situation when a team is out as an emphasis of doing our job.

But, but…I thought……One Rule, One Interpretation, right?

Oh wait, I'm not forced to pay homage to IAABO. Whew!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

How in the heck would an official have any idea who is informed once you tell a coach or tell and assistant their timeout situation?

Like JRutledge, I don't care one bit if #3 knew, or didn't know, if his team had any timeouts remaining. All I care about is that the officials (assuming they were informed by the table) informed one of the coaches of #3's team.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... inform the head coach, either during, or immediately after, the timeout, or, failing to get the attention of the head coach without interrupting his huddle, informing the assistant coach.

I don't, nor do I know of anyone else, who informs the entire team, even if the rule seems to (stupidly, it says a team and its coach, not a team or its coach) imply that. Everybody here in my local board just makes sure to tell the head coach, or if he's busy in the huddle, an assistant coach. As far as we're concerned, that fulfills the intent and purpose of the rule. If that procedure is followed (assuming that the table informs the official), we at least know with 100% reliability that an adult on the team is informed, and that we, as officials, are not kicking a rule. If the assistant coach doesn't inform the head coach, and/or if the head coach doesn't inform his players, then that responsibility is on the team's adult leaders, not on the officials. And, like JRutledge stated in an earlier post, even when players are informed by the coach not to request any timeouts, they are just kids, and they often do stupid things, like request a timeout that they don't have (see Chris Webber video).

Originally Posted by JRutledge

First of all, no one here brought up anything about this but you. That was not the issue of this thread or even the accusation of the team. The issue was whether or not the player requested a timeout.

At the time I made my first post regarding this rule, the main issue was, as JRutledge stated, whether or not the player requested a timeout, but also, at that time, Forum members had no idea if the coach was informed, or not informed.

Post #72 https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1001543

After U99's post came out that described, in detail, the entire incident, we became aware that the only issue was if a player had actually requested a timeout. The only reason that I have continued to post on this rule is in response to JRutledge's posts regarding this rule.

Post #99 https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1001626

Originally Posted by U99

The scorer notifies FCHS head coach that is his last timeout and he acknowledges in front of the official.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Yes, that is true, but that is not what appears to have happened here.

Absolutely 100% correct. If something like that happened, I'm sure that it would have been posted by U99 in his detailed report, after all, he was there. After U99's post, all of my posts responding to JRutledge have been about hypothetical situations, like an official not informing the coach, and the head coach chasing the official all over the court yelling, "How can you charge us with a technical foul, you never informed us that we were out of timeouts?" (even if I, as the official, screwed up, I would still charge the excess timeout technical foul, two wrongs don't make a right).

Bottom line, this was a good opportunity to remind Forum members, including officials, coaches, players, and fans, what the "inform" rule actual requires officials to do under such circumstances:

The scorer shall: Record the time-out information charged to each team (who and
when) and notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is
granted its final allotted charged time-out.

As well as: The scorer shall: Signal the nearer official each time a team is granted a time-out in
excess of the allotted number.

On the other hand, I couldn't let this incomplete interpretation (below) of the rule stand without mentioning rest of the rule:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The rule for timeouts requires the scorer to inform the officials that they are out of timeouts.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am only telling them if I am told they are out. If the table never says a thing, I am not saying a word.

And I am doing exactly the same. 100% agreement on this. (Although if I have reason to believe that a team has used all of its alloted timeouts, and I'm not informed, I may ask the table to double check.)

[JRutledge]

Again I couldn't care less or care less either way. If the teams do not know their timeout situation like other book situations, shame on them. Timeouts they call and verify after every granted is one them. Because if something is wrong, then they better figure that out before they are listed as out. So this entire rule that seems to be the focus is irrelevant. Just like it is irrelevant if the scorers sits together during the game and that rarely happens. It might help things if they do, but when they don't I am not going to go crazy if they don't.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You realize in playoff games kids "pucker up" and panic when the game is on the line right? You realize that players often make very bad decisions when things are well known right?