Hard foul, intentional, flagrant ? (HS)

[Rich]

I know what the rules and case plays say -- I also know how this is typically called in practice. This discussion started with this video and someone saying that he'd consider a held ball.

All I was saying is that it's unlikely I'd even consider it if the player had the ball ripped loose or knocked out before he landed. Is this something that's based strictly in the rules or case plays? No, but it's something that I believe is true in practice. If a defender can rip it out before the offensive player lands, I'm likely rewarding that.

[Adam]

Sometimes contact can be upgraded based on the severity of the impact on an airborne shooter. If the defender had shown previous reckless behavior, I might. I doubt I would have upgraded this, but the risk is always there when you commit a hard foul on a shooter who is airborne.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

I know what the rules and case plays say -- I also know how this is typically called in practice. This discussion started with this video and someone saying that he'd consider a held ball.

All I was saying is that it's unlikely I'd even consider it if the player had the ball ripped loose or knocked out before he landed. Is this something that's based strictly in the rules or case plays? No, but it's something that I believe is true in practice. If a defender can rip it out before the offensive player lands, I'm likely rewarding that.

If I have a "stuff" at the top and he starts coming down to the floor, I have a held ball. I do not care if the player comes to the floor and that is the suggestion by the rulebook, casebook and S&I book. It has always been that way to my understanding and even in some interpretations. So I do not see why I would wait until the player comes back to the floor if the shot is stopped in the air.

Peace

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Rich

I know what the rules and case plays say -- I also know how this is typically called in practice. This discussion started with this video and someone saying that he'd consider a held ball.

All I was saying is that it's unlikely I'd even consider it if the player had the ball ripped loose or knocked out before he landed. Is this something that's based strictly in the rules or case plays? No, but it's something that I believe is true in practice. If a defender can rip it out before the offensive player lands, I'm likely rewarding that.

I have to say I only commented because I've never heard "can't call a held ball if it comes loose before feet hit floor." I'm obviously not in your area but I've never heard or learned that it's a practice not to call held ball if it comes loose before offense hits ground. I look at contact, how long it lasts and the effect on offensive player. I don't ever consider feet. Now, as a practical matter, if your talking about a player with a two inch vertical...if the ball is ripped loose before he lands then the contact and length of it isn't likely going to be enough to be a held ball. Likely just a blocked shot.

Also creating a loose ball isn't particularly a benefit to the defender....unless his team recovers it. Calling the held ball gives it to his team or makes other team use and lose the arrow to keep it.

Each has to make his or her own decision but I don't consider whether feet have landed. It's all about what happens up top for me and the length of it...

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I have to say I only commented because I've never heard "can't call a held ball if it comes loose before feet hit floor."

I think the NCAA and NFHS rules are different on this.

I don't have the time to research it.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I think the NCAA and NFHS rules are different on this.

I don't have the time to research it.

Well great. I guess I'll look it up. I thought about it tonight and in this kind of game, not much above rim play, no leapers...I can see where it does make some sense. Contact and length of it likely not long enough on the avg turnaround jumper if ball comes out before hitting ground.

I just focus up top more. Foreign to me to do it.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I think the NCAA and NFHS rules are different on this.

I don't have the time to research it.

Well, I'll be (how about u be instead) damned. The NCAAM rule does say prevent player from throwing or releasing on a try AND returning to floor with it etc.

I'll fine myself $20. Bucky, plz cover that for me.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I'll fine myself $20. Bucky, plz cover that for me.

Sigh.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bucky

Sigh.

I'll pay you back....Tuesday.

Ps. WE are lucky I didn't bet longhorn on the college version of the rule...

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Well, I'll be (how about u be instead) damned. The NCAAM rule does say prevent player from throwing or releasing on a try AND returning to floor with it etc.

I'll fine myself $20. Bucky, plz cover that for me.

Same in NCAAW. Make the fine $40.

[PAlbc]

If you look at the contact by the trail defender I think it's a reasonable shooting foul. The defender under the basket (#4) is a bit trickier because you can't see how the contact is made on the offensive player.

If the foul was called on #4, then I could see how they might upgrade to an IF. He makes the contact up high on the arm, then takes the contact all the way through to the ground. He still has #11w's right arm held almost until both of his own hands have hit the ground.

Again, this is only going by the angle of this video, but I would guess the officials decided that #4 had continued contact and force all the way through to the ground.

If the foul was called on the trail defender, then I have no idea how to call it an IF.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Same in NCAAW. Make the fine $40.

Well, I should appeal the doubling of that fine....but I won't. Could have been much higher. I should have known that....