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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 17, 2017, 10:53am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoopologist View Post
Here I'm posting a play from a recent HS BV game in Seattle. I realize the video makes it difficult to determine the nature or degree of the foul. But I'm wondering about the nuances differentiating a tough, hard-nosed foul from an intentional or flagrant.
Everybody here agrees that unless there's something that is not shown in the video, this is NOT an intentional foul -- so what did the officials on the court decide?
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 17, 2017, 11:07am
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just a hard fall

This play is your garden variety "hard fall with contact" which was caused by the downward counter-force of the defender's blocked shot action on an airborne shooter. We see such defensive plays on a regular basis; I saw no rationale for upgrading to an IF. Also, now, in other instances there is a "hard fall" and no contact on airborne shooter is even made---I have seen this occur when shooters try to make fairly acrobatic moves in the air and fall down hard after the counter-force of the block--I had "nothing" in such cases--despite a body splayed on the floor.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 17, 2017, 11:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
It can't be a held ball -- the ball came out before the player returned to the floor.
It could if all the contact is with the ball and prevents a shooter from releasing the ball.

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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 17, 2017, 11:40am
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From this angle, I don't have anything more than a regular personal foul.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 17, 2017, 11:49am
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
It could if all the contact is with the ball and prevents a shooter from releasing the ball.

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I agree. Rich i wasn't sure what you meant when you said it couldn't be a jump ball because the ball came out before he hit the floor. If it prevents the shooter from "throwing" the ball or "releasing it on a try" i think the rule says..its a held ball. Just because it came out here before the kid hit the floor doesn't prevent it from being a held ball...
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 17, 2017, 11:50am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
It could if all the contact is with the ball and prevents a shooter from releasing the ball.

Peace
Ugh.

Let me get this straight -- a shooter goes up, a player puts his hands on the ball, and the ball clearly comes out before the shooter returns to the floor. You're even considering a held ball in this scenario?
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 17, 2017, 11:55am
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
Ugh.

Let me get this straight -- a shooter goes up, a player puts his hands on the ball, and the ball clearly comes out before the shooter returns to the floor. You're even considering a held ball in this scenario?
I would consider a held ball in this play. the fact that the ball came out eventually, just prior to kid hitting floor doesn't mean i won't consider it. once kid is in air I'm looking to see the contact with the ball, how long and the effect it has on the offensive player. The ball coming loose before a player hits the ground has never been a consideration for me. Now, if a kid can only jump 2 inches the contact and ball coming loose before he hits the ground is going to be quick and likely not a held ball. i'll make that judgment up top though not really based on when he hit the floor.

Last edited by BigCat; Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 11:59am.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 17, 2017, 11:56am
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Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
I would consider a held ball in this play. the fact that the ball came out eventually, just prior to kid hitting floor doesn't mean i won't consider it.
I like to think my whistle is patient enough that the ball would already be out....and then with a loose ball I'd lose interest in calling a held ball.

But YMMV.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 17, 2017, 11:57am
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Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
I would consider a held ball in this play. the fact that the ball came out eventually, just prior to kid hitting floor doesn't mean i won't consider it.
Don't have my book here... but I'm 95% sure that by rule, your statement is incorrect.
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Old Fri Feb 17, 2017, 12:04pm
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Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
Don't have my book here... but I'm 95% sure that by rule, your statement is incorrect.
What's the question? rule doesn't say anything about a player landing. it says held ball when opponent has hand on ball and prevents airborne player from "throwing" or "releasing it on a try." If that's what your saying is incorrect then i wouldn't bet on it if i were you.

If the defender here got all ball and stayed with it, turning player sideways by getting all ball and then the ball came out at the very end id certainly consider held ball. This player was certainly prevented from throwing the ball and/or releasing it on a try.

I might wait on the whistle but my point is that just because the ball comes out eventually just before this kid touches down doesn't mean it can't be a held ball.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 17, 2017, 12:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
Ugh.

Let me get this straight -- a shooter goes up, a player puts his hands on the ball, and the ball clearly comes out before the shooter returns to the floor. You're even considering a held ball in this scenario?
If the ball is stopped from release at the top, yes. It would only not be if the ball is clearly knocked out of the hand.

Also there is a play in the Simplified and Illustrated Book. Also 4.25.2 clearly states what this is as well.



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Last edited by JRutledge; Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 12:06pm.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 17, 2017, 12:11pm
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I know what the rules and case plays say -- I also know how this is typically called in practice. This discussion started with this video and someone saying that he'd consider a held ball.

All I was saying is that it's unlikely I'd even consider it if the player had the ball ripped loose or knocked out before he landed. Is this something that's based strictly in the rules or case plays? No, but it's something that I believe is true in practice. If a defender can rip it out before the offensive player lands, I'm likely rewarding that.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 17, 2017, 12:46pm
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Sometimes contact can be upgraded based on the severity of the impact on an airborne shooter. If the defender had shown previous reckless behavior, I might. I doubt I would have upgraded this, but the risk is always there when you commit a hard foul on a shooter who is airborne.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 17, 2017, 02:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
I know what the rules and case plays say -- I also know how this is typically called in practice. This discussion started with this video and someone saying that he'd consider a held ball.

All I was saying is that it's unlikely I'd even consider it if the player had the ball ripped loose or knocked out before he landed. Is this something that's based strictly in the rules or case plays? No, but it's something that I believe is true in practice. If a defender can rip it out before the offensive player lands, I'm likely rewarding that.
If I have a "stuff" at the top and he starts coming down to the floor, I have a held ball. I do not care if the player comes to the floor and that is the suggestion by the rulebook, casebook and S&I book. It has always been that way to my understanding and even in some interpretations. So I do not see why I would wait until the player comes back to the floor if the shot is stopped in the air.

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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 17, 2017, 02:39pm
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I think hoopologist has posed a very good question: is excessive contact based on how hard the player hits the floor or is it how hard the player gets hit?
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