Courtesy comment to coach

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by pfan1981

Hello all,

We had a GV game on Saturday that had a girl putting her head down and steam rolling her way in the lane. She was completely out of control. The first couple times there was no illegal contact believe it or not. As a courtesy, I told the coach that a player out driving the lane out of control is probably not going to get the benefit of the doubt with our crew.

She argued about stuff on the other end like coaches will do. But then she told that player as she was subbing out, to watch out they are looking to call a foul on you.

I know you cannot quote silence but I was trying to work with the coach just like when you talk to them about some sketchy screens.

What did you think? About her comments and our tactics?

Pfan

You had no business bringing it up. "Out of control" is fan-speak, so that was definitely a phrase that should not have been part of any conversation with a coach.

[pfan1981]

In hindsight, probably not a good idea to bring it up with the coach. Just call the charges or travels as they drive the lane.

Do you ever ask the coaches to clean up different parts of their team's game (rebounding, screening, etc.), or just call the fouls?

[UNIgiantslayers]

Originally Posted by pfan1981

In hindsight, probably not a good idea to bring it up with the coach. Just call the charges or travels as they drive the lane.

Do you ever ask the coaches to clean up different parts of their team's game (rebounding, screening, etc.), or just call the fouls?

If I see a kid leaning on a screen or too wide without contact, I might tell the coach he's getting too wide. I think these are HTBT kind of things.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

If I see a kid leaning on a screen or too wide without contact, I might tell the coach he's getting too wide. I think these are HTBT kind of things.

i will tell the kid before the coach. he's the one going to get the foul. coach won't get to him before i can in all likelihood.

I see kids try to make themselves bigger on a pick by spreading legs out and bending knees. I just tell them, "You have to stay within your shoulders/frame when setting pick/screen. if you squat, knees stick out and somebody else runs into one of them …that's a foul...on you." I might tell them once.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by pfan1981

In hindsight, probably not a good idea to bring it up with the coach. Just call the charges or travels as they drive the lane.

Do you ever ask the coaches to clean up different parts of their team's game (rebounding, screening, etc.), or just call the fouls?

The only thing I ever ask them to help me with is sportsmanship, and then only if I have the chance. Coaches are going to want their players pushing the limits of what we'll call when it comes to fouls and such.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Adam

The only thing I ever ask them to help me with is sportsmanship, and then only if I have the chance. Coaches are going to want their players pushing the limits of what we'll call when it comes to fouls and such.

I learned that working a college scrimmage while a college student myself about 25 years ago.

I was warning a player on handchecking trying to avoid a foul and the coach pulled me aside and politely told me, "I want them doing that until the official shows us he'll actually call that." When I called it the next time, the coach was smiling.

Lesson learned....for an entire career.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You had no business bringing it up. "Out of control" is fan-speak, so that was definitely a phrase that should not have been part of any conversation with a coach.

You know, I've said "your kid's out of control, nowhere to go and I'm not bailing him out etc." But only when I'm questioned. (and likely when I'm aggravated) so i won't be hard on him for those words…BUT id never go tell a coach "your player is putting head down and out of control" until he, the coach, made a comment about it.

He may want that aggressiveness. Just not my business and no need for me to say anything. being out of control isn't a foul. i will talk a post player out of a foul or maybe tell a player setting a pick to keep the knees inside his frame.

If I was concerned about this player i might tell her something.."you go barreling through your on your own" but certainly nothing to coach.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You had no business bringing it up. "Out of control" is fan-speak, so that was definitely a phrase that should not have been part of any conversation with a coach.

Yup. I was thinking the same thing and BNR beat me to it by 30 minutes. As BillyMac often points out, there are some things that officials would be better off not saying in a game. "Out of control," "Over the back," "On the floor," etc.

Dealing with coaches is an art that comes slowly. A lot of it has to do with the confidence you have in your own calls and an ability to articulate that quickly and efficiently. You also have to kind of have a sense when a coach might have a question and perhaps position yourself a little closer to him/her so they can ask it. And while it's taboo to make or answer comments, there are those intangible moments when it might be appropriate to do just that. No way to teach this. It just comes with experience.

One thing I've also noticed is that the older I get and look, the less hostile coaches tend to be, even when I'm the new guy in an area who they don't know from Adam. False perceptions of immaturity may not be fair, but they are subconscious prejudices that can't be avoided. So if you look young....well that just sucks and you might have to resort to your teapot a little more often.

Lastly in this monologue that I didn't intend to be a monologue, know when to apologize or admit you may have made a mistake. It's amazing how quickly that gets most coach's respect. Last week I was working a youth game and Coach B had six players and it was a physical game. B1 gets his fifth foul midway through the fourth quarter, and it was no surprise to the crew or Team A that "five" had just been arrived at. Team A claps at the occasion (rude, but not T worthy), and in an attempt to appear relaxed and de-escalatory, as I turn to report I say, "Yup, they knew it." Needless to say Coach B was offended, and I realized immediately that I had spoken before thinking about how that would sound. Very next dead ball I was by his bench and I just looked him in the eye and said, "I should not have said that; it was disrespectful and I apologize." Not my finest moment at first but the recovery was nice. Took the coach down a whole level of angst and the rest of the game went smoothly.

Bottom line: Dealing with coaches is a learned skill that takes a LOT of reps to get good at.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Yup. I was thinking the same thing and BNR beat me to it by 30 minutes. As BillyMac often points out, there are some things that officials would be better off not saying in a game. "Out of control," "Over the back," "On the floor," etc.

I see Billy here and some others say certain phrases shouldn't be used as officials as you suggest above. I think it's overblown here...by a lot. I know multiple final four officials who use some, not all, of the phrases some here say are taboo. They simply care about getting call right. "No shot" or "on the floor." They just don't want to shoot two and really don't care about the words that come out. They want to communicate in words all understand. "On the floor" may be wrong/taboo by the words of the rule but everybody understands the phrase. Many, many good referees use it.

Get the call right. Communicate so people understand what your calling. Substance over form.

And as an example, if you go to the table and say 32 blue "displacement" you've proven you can read. If you say 32 blue "push." Your telling people what happened in words they understand.

And finally, you should kick in money to a fund for the length of your post. 10 bucks I'd say. Mine was just under the threshold for a fine...imagine that.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I see Billy here and some others say certain phrases shouldn't be used as officials as you suggest above. I think it's overblown here...by a lot. I know multiple final four officials who use some, not all, of the phrases some here say are taboo. They simply care about getting call right. "No shot" or "on the floor." They just don't want to shoot two and really don't care about the words that come out. They want to communicate in words all understand. "On the floor" may be wrong/taboo by the words of the rule but everybody understands the phrase. Many, many good referees use it.

Get the call right. Communicate so people understand what your calling. Substance over form.

And as an example, if you go to the table and say 32 blue "displacement" you've proven you can read. If you say 32 blue "push." Your telling people what happened in words they understand.

And finally, you should kick in money to a fund for the length of your post. 10 bucks I'd say. Mine was just under the threshold for a fine...imagine that.

Well said. I will say "No Shot," or "On the floor," often for this exact reason: No one misunderstands what my call is.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by frezer11

Well said. I will say "No Shot," or "On the floor," often for this exact reason: No one misunderstands what my call is.

I quit saying "on the floor" after I had a bunch of coaches complain when I called a shooting foul when the shooter hadn't left the floor yet. I still get those complaints, but I'm at least not contributing to the problem. "Before the shot" works just as well, and it's got the added benefit of verbal accuracy. More importantly, it doesn't perpetuate a stupid myth.

I have the same issues with "over the back" and "reaching in." Sure, most coaches know what is meant, but there are quite a few who legitimately think reaching over the back is a foul regardless of contact. Why? Partly because as they worked up from lower levels, it was called that way.

Endline/baseline? I don't give a rat's ass. Call/Request a timeout? Not important.

Originally Posted by Adam

I quit saying "on the floor" after I had a bunch of coaches complain when I called a shooting foul when the shooter hadn't left the floor yet.

This is my 5th season and I have yet to hear a coach/player/fan say this. Perhaps they are a little more educated in my area.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by AremRed

This is my 5th season and I have yet to hear a coach/player/fan say this. Perhaps they are a little more educated in my area.

It doesn't happen much above the middle school level, but I learned to get that term from my vocabulary. There are just too many legitimate alternatives that don't perpetuate the myths.

You do you, bruh.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by Adam

I quit saying "on the floor" after I had a bunch of coaches complain when I called a shooting foul when the shooter hadn't left the floor yet. I still get those complaints, but I'm at least not contributing to the problem. "Before the shot" works just as well, and it's got the added benefit of verbal accuracy. More importantly, it doesn't perpetuate a stupid myth.

I have the same issues with "over the back" and "reaching in." Sure, most coaches know what is meant, but there are quite a few who legitimately think reaching over the back is a foul regardless of contact. Why? Partly because as they worked up from lower levels, it was called that way.

Endline/baseline? I don't give a rat's ass. Call/Request a timeout? Not important.

I guess if I ever had an issue with this I might rethink it. As for this, I agree and do not use these phrases, and for the same reason you posted, some are actually convinced that reaching over the back with no contact is still a foul.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally Posted by Adam

I quit saying "on the floor" after I had a bunch of coaches complain when I called a shooting foul when the shooter hadn't left the floor yet. I still get those complaints, but I'm at least not contributing to the problem. "Before the shot" works just as well, and it's got the added benefit of verbal accuracy. More importantly, it doesn't perpetuate a stupid myth.

I have the same issues with "over the back" and "reaching in." Sure, most coaches know what is meant, but there are quite a few who legitimately think reaching over the back is a foul regardless of contact. Why? Partly because as they worked up from lower levels, it was called that way.

Endline/baseline? I don't give a rat's ass. Call/Request a timeout? Not important.

I saw a state final where the official "signaled" "on the floor" by pointing down. Most of the 5,000 or so couldn't hear him say "on the floor" but they all saw a mechanic that looked very much like "count the basket"

As for endline/baseline, I agree it doesn't matter, but I always use endline because it subtlely conveys that I read the rulebook.