The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #31 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 02, 2017, 09:03pm
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,741
I worked underclass ball for 5-6 years before I got a full varsity schedule.

One thing people don't get is that for a new official to get a spot on a staff I have to cut another person or cut a few people back.

I had the occasion to get an email from an official who is in his 3rd year who told me he was proficient in 3-person mechanics and should get games. He'd In a pinch I sent him with an experienced crew and showed he had no clue how to work the system.

In the end, it's about assigner comfort to a certain degree. I can say this, however. If you took the time to communicate with me and express your concerns, I would either work with you or put you with a crew I trust and give you a fair shake.

Then again, where I live there are league assigners and not every game flows through one person, which is a better system, I think, for those who want to be seen and move up.
Reply With Quote
  #32 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 03, 2017, 12:11pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Kansas
Posts: 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Player989random View Post
As a young (I kill the median in every group I'm in) ref in 3 sports, I notice the same problem in each group I'm with. Answering the recruiting, go to an intramural program. Believe you me, when I heard $65 as the starting game fee I gave up dealing with frat-fights every Sunday-Thursday for $9/hour. Your bigger issue is retention. Even in IM's we had about a 16% return rate. Most kids left because they couldn't handle being shouted at for 3 hours a night. Now imagine those guys in a gym on Friday night.

Yet even if you find the guys who don't care about Billy the angry dad, you get the guys who are tired of the politics and lack of mobility. I'm not reffing girl's MS for 4 years to "pay my dues" when it's clear as day that the Varsity guys can't even walk up and down a court. Hearing crap like we were "great officials but too young to work Varsity" while a board member's nephew worked a playoff game in his 2nd year didn't help."Trust the process" they said. **** the process.

As for the belief that "we don't want to hear" that we aren't ready, nah man, we're just tired of the corruption. You'll never be ready for even a bad Varsity game if you spend all your time reffing 5-step travels and double dribbles. And I've never met a good ref who thought he was Varsity ready after his first year.

My advice is that when you go to recruit these kids, you be honest. You won't work Varsity for a while, and even then not a quality one, because of office politics. Once they hear that, most will stay because they're curious, or want the cash. Lord knows it's why I do soccer.
*valid points actually.
Reply With Quote
  #33 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 03, 2017, 01:45pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 14,479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas Ref View Post
*valid points actually.
And as somebody who has officiated his entire 16 year officiating career in Virginia, his accounting of how things go in the commonwealth rings true.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #34 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 03, 2017, 02:09pm
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,741
Still, there's a middle ground.

Young officials think the old guys should step aside. Old guys think the young guys should wait their turn.

Neither position is right.
Reply With Quote
  #35 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 03, 2017, 02:17pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Kansas
Posts: 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
Still, there's a middle ground.

Young officials think the old guys should step aside. Old guys think the young guys should wait their turn.

Neither position is right.
*So, given that you yourself are very familiar with both the "assigning" tasks and the evaluation of an official's "suitability for varsity games": what in your humble opinion is the normal period of time [or number of basketball seasons] for an official to realistically be expected to transition from sub-varsity to varsity?
Reply With Quote
  #36 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 03, 2017, 02:31pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 14,479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas Ref View Post
*So, given that you yourself are very familiar with both the "assigning" tasks and the evaluation of an official's "suitability for varsity games": what in your humble opinion is the normal period of time [or number of basketball seasons] for an official to realistically be expected to transition from sub-varsity to varsity?
There is no set answer for that. I have worked with guys who are ready after 1 season as long as you put them on the court with at least one trusted veteran who can handle coaches and any unusual situations. I have a protégé right now who is still 19 (or may have recently turned 20). He's not ready for the big time rivalry games or post-season Boys Varsity, but he is already trusted by 2 different HS commissioners to work regular season BV; and rightfully so.

I didn't start officiating until I was 37 years old. By my 2nd season I was getting BV games, in part because my military background gave me a maturity and presence that came across on the court, and I studied the rule book.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #37 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 03, 2017, 02:50pm
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,741
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas Ref View Post
*So, given that you yourself are very familiar with both the "assigning" tasks and the evaluation of an official's "suitability for varsity games": what in your humble opinion is the normal period of time [or number of basketball seasons] for an official to realistically be expected to transition from sub-varsity to varsity?
There is no set answer to this.

I have worked with a 19 year old a few times in the past few years and he gets his calls right and works well. As long as he's with someone who can make sure coaches stay off his back and let him work, he's fine.

Some people take longer.

With everyone hiring 3 officials now for every game, we need 50% more varsity officials on every given night than we did 10 years ago. So some officials are moving up quicker......many of them are ready for it. Some are not.

I was 18 when I started and did not get under a trusted official's wing. So I had to learn things on my own, the hard way and it took me longer. And with 2-person crews, it was a slower process for even the best and it was accepted that good officials were working JV.
Reply With Quote
  #38 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 06, 2017, 02:17pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Kansas
Posts: 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
There is no set answer to this.

I have worked with a 19 year old a few times in the past few years and he gets his calls right and works well. As long as he's with someone who can make sure coaches stay off his back and let him work, he's fine.

Some people take longer..
*Rich and BNR---I think we all realize that there are "exceptions" and "outliers" (i.e., the 19 yr ole kid who is so awesome that he gets high level varsity tournaments in his 2nd year of NF officiating); however, the simple question posed here is: Given that an aspiring official has attended the requisite camps, officiated the requisite sub-varsity schedule, had no Arbiter declines, and is working with a fair assignor, then what is a reasonable amount of time ["seasons of officiating"] that they ought to realistically expect to be transitioned from sub-varsity to varsity?

I would expect that number to be "Five" seasons of officiating. I base this on the reasoning from a well-informed book about human cognitive development and expertise in task operations [the book= "The Tipping Point", Malcolm Gladwell] in which he asserts that 10,000 hours of training/experience/practice on a given complex task will generally provide enough interactions and unique episodes with the subject matter to enable a person to go from "beginner" to "experienced". So, 5 years of officiating (even if done for 3 month long NF seasons only plus combined with camp attendance and reffing non-NF games off season) will get you pretty close to that 10,000 hours. Furthermore, it was described that any additional training after 10,000 hours when the task is not systematically increased in complexity/challenge will actually result in an erosion of the intended developed skill.
And in closing, I realize I have been long-winded here, but we must treat this situation of "official recruitment/retention" in a well-considered manner. Thanks, All.

Last edited by Kansas Ref; Mon Feb 06, 2017 at 02:40pm.
Reply With Quote
  #39 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 06, 2017, 02:24pm
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,741
Year 3 I could see using that official and observing the work. Swag on my part...
Reply With Quote
  #40 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 06, 2017, 02:44pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 14,479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas Ref View Post
*Rich and BNR---I think we all realize that there are "exceptions" and "outliers" (i.e., the 19 yr ole kid who is so awesome that he gets high level varsity tournaments in his 2nd year of NF officiating); however, the simple question posed here is: Given that an aspiring official has attended the requisite camps, officiated the requisite sub-varsity schedule, had no Arbiter declines, and is working with a fair assignor, then what is a reasonable amount of time ["seasons of officiating"] that they ought to realistically expect to be transitioned from sub-varsity to varsity?

I would expect that number to be "Five" seasons of officiating. I base this on the reasoning from a well-informed book about human cognitive development and expertise in task operations [the book= "The Tipping Point", Malcolm Gladwell] in which he asserts that 10,000 hours of training/experience/practice on a given complex task will generally provide enough interactions and unique episodes with the subject matter to enable a person to go from "beginner" to "experienced". So, 5 years of officiating (even if done for 3 month long NF seasons only plus combined with camp attendance and reffing non-NF games off season) will get you pretty close to that 10,000 hours. Furthermore, it was described that any additional training after 10,000 hours when the task is not systematically increased in complexity/challenge will actually result in an erosion of the intended developed skill.
And in closing, I realize I have been long-winded here, but we must treat this situation of "official recruitment/retention" in a well-considered manner. Thanks, All.
Outliers are created by training, a commitment to learning, and coach-ability. My opinion/observation is that officials who commit to higher level camps and training opportunities are ready for BV within 2-3 seasons of that commitment.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR

Last edited by Raymond; Mon Feb 06, 2017 at 04:18pm.
Reply With Quote
  #41 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 06, 2017, 03:11pm
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,741
There's a difference, too, between using someone as a U2 in a lower intensity game and as an R in a nutcutter.
Reply With Quote
  #42 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 07, 2017, 09:41am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
There's a difference, too, between using someone as a U2 in a lower intensity game and as an R in a nutcutter.
Exactly. We kind of say "varsity" in this thread like once you break in to varsity you're ready from everything from Single-A to 6-A, which is obviously not the case.

You can use some of these new guys (competent year 3 guys, maybe year 2) in the lower classification games (small schools are "Single-A" here). Use the new guys in a few Single-A games mid-season that don't mean anything in the standings or a non-conference game. Gets their feet wet and doesn't affect much in the grand scheme of things.

KansasRef, IMO 5 years is wayyyyyy too long to wait for varsity. Especially when the young guy works a sub-varsity game with the old guy that does varsity, and the young guy does just as good of a job as the old guy, if not better (maybe slight edge due to mobility and fresh rules knowledge). That would make guys quit if they're sitting on the bench and that guy is getting varsity games.

Last edited by bossman72; Tue Feb 07, 2017 at 10:05am.
Reply With Quote
  #43 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 07, 2017, 10:23am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Kansas
Posts: 604
Thank you, all.
Reply With Quote
  #44 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 07, 2017, 11:55am
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
I worked underclass ball for 5-6 years before I got a full varsity schedule.
I worked varsity in my very first year. By my second year the vast majority of my games were varsity level. Now I worked many more girls varsity that year than boys and still had to earn my right to get move boys varsity games and by my third year I had much fewer girls games than boys. I attribute that all to dedications and seeking training and advice. Many officials just work games and hope that they are given a chance. You got to put in the work and become a gym rat on some level if you want someone to have that confidence in you.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #45 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 07, 2017, 11:58am
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,741
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I worked varsity in my very first year. By my second year the vast majority of my games were varsity level. Now I worked many more girls varsity that year than boys and still had to earn my right to get move boys varsity games and by my third year I had much fewer girls games than boys. I attribute that all to dedications and seeking training and advice. Many officials just work games and hope that they are given a chance. You got to put in the work and become a gym rat on some level if you want someone to have that confidence in you.

Peace
I won't argue with you, but also understand that everything back then was 2-person and I lived in an area where even the BEST officials got no more than 2-3 days a week. They also worked ALL GV/BV DH, which cut opportunities even further. Rural area - Lots of guys, few games. Things improved for me quickly once I moved to a more urban area for grad school.

Here if I was a real go-getter, I could work 6-7 days a week and build a varsity schedule very quickly.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Recruiting New Referees Terrapins Fan Basketball 4 Wed Feb 19, 2014 06:50pm
Recruiting Officials kleeds Softball 13 Fri Apr 15, 2011 07:17pm
Recruiting new umpires................ Stevetheump Softball 19 Wed Feb 03, 2010 07:16pm
Recruiting Initiative HossHumard Football 5 Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:02pm
Recruiting New Officials edsid Basketball 6 Fri Aug 18, 2000 09:24am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:23pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1