Does Continuation Apply?

[Da Official]

Originally Posted by BigCat

The continuous motion rule requires the "habitual throwing movement" to start first. Then a player is allowed to complete customary foot movement.

Also, you are only looking at the 3 article in the try rule when you say "try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes release of ball." If you look at Art 2 you will see that that language is referring to throwing the ball and not foot movement. Foot movement doesn't count until there's something you can call a throwing motion.

The jump stop begins and ends before the player ever starts the throwing motion. She is actually in the air landing at time of the foul. Everything is going down and nothing up at that moment. End line throw in.

(Sorry this is long)

Big Cat, to me, Section 41 Art 2 is giving us the definition of a try for field goal (an attempt by a player to score...) and continues with what a try for goal looks like (throwing or attempting to throw) and states a caveat that the ball does not actually have to leave the player's hand. I think it’s safe to say we all understand the definition of a try.

To me Section 41 Art 3 goes into more detail as to WHEN the try actually starts (when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball).

Question for all officials:
1. Does Art 3 say that the try starts when the player 'begins the hand motion'? Arm motion? Feet motion? Head motion?

Answer: It does not specify any part of the body. It simply says 'the motion'. Why is that?

I’m not completely sure but I would say there are quite a few plays that involve motion such as steps or pivoting before the release of the ball for a try for field goal. Someone is always taking steps for a layup, floater, finger roll, or last second heave to the goal, etc. Does it matter what the ball is doing during these steps or is it what the player is doing?

Some say the ball needs to be going upward at the point of the foul. WHY??? What does the position of the ball have to do when fouled? What if the player wraps the ball around his/her back while stepping or what if the player holds the ball tightly on the hip while stepping or puts the ball behind his/her head while stepping?

The article says and I agree that "the true determining factor in ruling to award free throws or not is WHAT THE PLAYER IS DOING at the time of the foul. The player is doing one of three things: dribbling, passing or shooting."

If we were to apply this logic to our scenario or any other, once the dribble ends and the ball is being held we as officials have to determine is the player passing or shooting (as dribbling was eliminated when the ball was held). Now Big Cat I agree we have to look at Art 2 and Art 3 together because it will help us determine if the player is passing or shooting. We either have an attempt to score or an attempt to pass.

How do we determine which? Art 2 says its "in the official's judgment". For me I let the play start, develop, and finish. The question is answered for me in Rule 4 Section 11 Art 2 when I allow the player to "complete the customary arm movement....or usual foot or body movement". At this point, the foul should not make the ball dead unless the player was dribbling.

If the player attempts a shot, then I rule a try. If the player does not look to shoot and passes, then I rule no try - ball dead. If the player looks to shoot and loses the ball or balance or whatever and then passes, then it gets tricky and is a true judgment scenario as to awarding a try.

In our scenario, the player ended the dribble, took the 1st step, was fouled (while bringing the ball up which really shouldn’t matter), completed a jump stop, and a try for field goal. Award 2 points plus 1 FT.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Da Official

(Sorry is this is long)

Big Cat, to me, Section 41 Art 2 is giving us the definition of a try for field goal (an attempt by a player to score...) and continues with what a try for goal looks like (throwing or attempting to throw) and states a caveat that the ball does not actually have to leave the player's hand. I think it’s safe to say we all understand the definition of a try.

To me Section 41 Art 3 goes into more detail as to WHEN the try actually starts (when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball).

Question for all officials:
1. Does Art 3 say that the try starts when the player 'begins the hand motion'? Arm motion? Feet motion? Head motion?

Answer: It does not specify any part of the body. It simply says 'the motion'. Why is that?

I’m not completely sure but I would say there are quite a few plays that involve motion such as steps or pivoting before the release of the ball for a try for field goal. Someone is always taking steps for a layup, floater, finger roll, or last second heave to the goal, etc. Does it matter what the ball is doing during these steps or is it what the player is doing?

Some say the ball needs to be going upward at the point of the foul. WHY??? What does the position of the ball have to do when fouled? What if the player wraps the ball around his/her back while stepping or what if the player holds the ball tightly on the hip while stepping or puts the ball behind his/her head while stepping?

The article says and I agree that "the true determining factor in ruling to award free throws or not is WHAT THE PLAYER IS DOING at the time of the foul. The player is doing one of three things: dribbling, passing or shooting."

If we were to apply this logic to our scenario or any other, once the dribble ends and the ball is being held we as officials have to determine is the player passing or shooting (as dribbling was eliminated when the ball was held). Now Big Cat I agree we have to look at Art 2 and Art 3 together because it will help us determine if the player is passing or shooting. We either have an attempt to score or an attempt to pass.

How do we determine which? Art 2 says its "in the official's judgment". For me I let the play start, develop, and finish. The question is answered for me in Rule 4 Section 11 Art 2 when I allow the player to "complete the customary arm movement....or usual foot or body movement". At this point, the foul should not make the ball dead unless the player was dribbling.

If the player attempts a shot, then I rule a try. If the player does not look to shoot and passes, then I rule no try - ball dead. If the player looks to shoot and loses the ball or balance or whatever and then passes, then it gets tricky and is a true judgment scenario as to awarding a try.

In our scenario, the player ended the dribble, took the 1st step, was fouled (while bringing the ball up which really shouldn’t matter), completed a jump stop, and a try for field goal. Award 2 points plus 1 FT.

Your referee article author is discussing the play when a player ends a dribble and has to shoot or pass. probably a regular layup move. Is it a shot or a pass? That's what his article is about. The player in that motion is headed up, he's jumping. question is shot or pass? That is why he says only things left are "shot or pass."

In this play the player is on her way "down" on a jump stop when she is fouled. The statement that the player is "dribbling, shooting or passing" applies to the author's play. This girl, again, is on the way down. She can land and do nothing if she wants. It is a different play than your article.

The throwing motion has to start before you think about foot movements counting. You are counting foot movements that happen before the throwing motion as starting the try. That just isn't the rule. The question here is how far back in time do you go to say she starts the trying motion? This girl has to land and then decide if she will stay there, pass or shoot. She's not close to being in the act of shooting.

I do look for some upward movement to consider a player in act. i may error on side of the foul being in act if on breakaway layup or certain other circumstances. I would never, in a billion years, call this play fouled in the act of shooting.