Block or Charge or No Call (Video)

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

NFHS R4-S23-A3c (and the wording would be the same for NCAA Men's/Women's and FIBA) says:

After the initial legal guarding position is obtained the guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.

Moving laterally means the paths of the defensive player and the offensive player are parallel to each other.


1) At time T0: B-32 is at point B0; W-4 is at point W0; and W-4 has obtained a LGP with respect to B32.

2) At time T1: B-32 is at point B1; W-4 is at point W1; B-32 changes her direction of movement thereby establishing a new straight line of movement called Li32 toward point B3; and W-4 changes her direction of movement thereby establishing a new straight line of movement called Li4 toward point W3.

3) B-32 moves along Li32 and W-4 moves along Li4 until they come into contact with each other at time T2. W-4 and B-32 contact each other where lines L32 and W4 intersect at point PI.

4) If the angle formed by W1-PI-B1 is equal to 0 degrees but less than or equal to 90 degrees then B-32 is responsible for the contact. If the angle formed by W1-P1-B1 is greater than 90 degrees then W-4 is responsible for the contact.

MTD, Sr.

Originally Posted by BigCat

I dont say this to be mean...but at some point you have to watch more basketball. This is a block and its not even close. You can talk about LGP all day but if you see enough basketball your not asking the question.

She may have had LGP but offense went other way. She didn't maintain it...Fact is this isn't close.

Big Cat:

I do not know who you were telling to watch more basketball but I have watched more basketball, probably more than any other person on this forum: The 2016-17 season is my 46th year officiating boys'/girls' H.S. I officiated women's college basketball from 1974 to 2008, men's jr. college basketball from 1993 to 2008, and was a USA Basketball Referee from 1993 to 2003. I have officiated over 40 AAU, YBOA, and USSSA boys' and girls' national championship tournaments.

I will be the first that this play was very close to being a bang-bang play but if one referees the defense, and I were a betting man I would bet apples to oranges, that W-4 is moving obliquely away from B-32 at the moment of contact (see my post above).

I have been fortunate to have two of the foremost experts on guarding and screening (block /charge) at the H.S. level in the U.S. as personal friends: The late Ed Ferrigno of Connecticut (who was responsible for the NFHS changing the word "obtain" to "establish" in the guarding definition, and I helped him when he gave seminars on guarding and screening several times) and the immediate past national NFHS Chairman Peter Webb. I am the "bald old geezer" on this forum and I think that I am second to none with the application of the guarding and screening rules.

Just because B-32 went the other way, does not means nothing because W-4 is allowed to move to maintain her LGP. Please review NFHS 4-4-S23-3c as well as what I have posted above in red.

MTD, Sr.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Big Cat:

I do not know who you were telling to watch more basketball but I have watched more basketball, probably more than any other person on this forum: The 2016-17 season is my 46th year officiating boys'/girls' H.S. I officiated women's college basketball from 1974 to 2008, men's jr. college basketball from 1993 to 2008, and was a USA Basketball Referee from 1993 to 2003. I have officiated over 40 AAU, YBOA, and USSSA boys' and girls' national championship tournaments.

I will be the first that this play was very close to being a bang-bang play but if one referees the defense, and I were a betting man I would bet apples to oranges, that W-4 is moving obliquely away from B-32 at the moment of contact (see my post above).

I have been fortunate to have two of the foremost experts on guarding and screening (block /charge) at the H.S. level in the U.S. as personal friends: The late Ed Ferrigno of Connecticut (who was responsible for the NFHS changing the word "obtain" to "establish" in the guarding definition, and I helped him when he gave seminars on guarding and screening several times) and the immediate past national NFHS Chairman Peter Webb. I am the "bald old geezer" on this forum and I think that I am second to none with the application of the guarding and screening rules.

Just because B-32 went the other way, does not means nothing because W-4 is allowed to move to maintain her LGP. Please review NFHS 4-4-S23-3c as well as what I have posted above in red.

MTD, Sr.

I was talking about the poster. However, its a block. Whether you have 1 year or 50 years in. It is not even close. You can read a written rule and try to make it so but it just isnt. And with all due respect. It isnt close, imo. Each will have to make there own decision.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I was talking about the poster. However, its a block. Whether you have 1 year or 50 years in. It is not even close. You can read a written rule and try to make it so but it just isnt. And with all due respect. It isnt close, imo. Each will have to make there own decision.

This. ^^^

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

NFHS R4-S23-A3c (and the wording would be the same for NCAA Men's/Women's and FIBA) says:

After the initial legal guarding position is obtained the guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.

Moving laterally means the paths of the defensive player and the offensive player are parallel to each other.


1) At time T0: B-32 is at point B0; W-4 is at point W0; and W-4 has obtained a LGP with respect to B32.

2) At time T1: B-32 is at point B1; W-4 is at point W1; B-32 changes her direction of movement thereby establishing a new straight line of movement called Li32 toward point B3; and W-4 changes her direction of movement thereby establishing a new straight line of movement called Li4 toward point W3.

3) B-32 moves along Li32 and W-4 moves along Li4 until they come into contact with each other at time T2. W-4 and B-32 contact each other where lines L32 and W4 intersect at point PI.

4) If the angle formed by W1-PI-B1 is equal to 0 degrees but less than or equal to 90 degrees then B-32 is responsible for the contact. If the angle formed by W1-P1-B1 is greater than 90 degrees then W-4 is responsible for the contact.

MTD, Sr.

Originally Posted by BigCat

I was talking about the poster. However, its a block. Whether you have 1 year or 50 years in. It is not even close. You can read a written rule and try to make it so but it just isn't. And with all due respect. It isn't close, imo. Each will have to make there own decision.

Tell me what made you judge this to be a block by W-4?

MTD, Sr.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Tell me what made you judge this to be a block by W-4?

MTD, Sr.

The video. This is why I mentioned to the poster to watch more plays and see how they're called by experienced referees. I'm guessing he's reading the words in rules and seeing things like your four paragraphs earlier. Head spins.

Watch plays and see what's being called.
See earlier post 32 and Camron's.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Tell me what made you judge this to be a block by W-4?

MTD, Sr.

As Camron said earlier-- the offensive player changed her path and the offense did not legally get into that new path.

4-23 "Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent."

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Tell me what made you judge this to be a block by W-4?

MTD, Sr.

To use your terminology ... what makes me judge this to be a block is that the angle you describe is not 0 or 90. She moves TOWARD the offensive player's new path (if she didn't, there would be no contact).