Help on T situation

[BlueDevilRef]

Ok let me see if I can remember correctly here:

End of first quarter tonight. Black team has a player shooting FT's. He is wearing #8. I did not even recognize this until about five mins later, during 2nd quarter. At this point, nobody has said anything, other coaches or the book. So, I tell the black team coach that if 8 comes back into game, it would be a T. I now realize I screwed this up as if should have had the T as soon as I discovered it. I got it messed up thinking he was okay since he wasn't in the game.

Coach advised us at halftime he was changing the number which he did. So we assessed the T and moved on per 10-1-2c.

I've got that I messed up as noted above. My issue now is the difference between articles b,c,d (penalized when they occur), and E (pen when discovered). I've not read case book yet on this issue but can somebody tell me the difference? For b,c,d, if I am not aware of it when it happens, there is no penalty?

[SC Official]

Why did the R, when checking the book, not say anything to the coach of black about the illegal number?

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Why did the R, when checking the book, not say anything to the coach of black about the illegal number?

Because he was more concerned that the number of players in the book matched or exceeded the number he counted on the floor. I can't say I wouldn't have missed this, too. Even then, it's only a T on the coach if he allows said team member to participate. Merely having an illegal number in the book is not itself an infraction. Having to change it after the 10-minute mark is, though.

First game last year had a home team member with #8. Never called a foul on him (not sure if my partner did), so never even thought about the fact that it was an illegal number until I was driving home. I'd done so many AAU games that fall that 8s, 73s, and 96s simply didn't register in my mind as illegal. I'd just raise my sideways hands NBA style to report...and move on.

[BillyMac]

I found this (below) on my hard drive:

Technical fouls for illegal uniforms (including illegal numbers) are not charged to the team, but are charged directly to the head coach. If a team member participates as a player while wearing an illegal uniform, then a direct technical foul is charged to the head coach, who will lose the coaching box privilege for the remainder of the game. This infraction is penalized when discovered, and the team member with the illegal uniform may participate without further penalty and is not required to change the number. A maximum of one technical foul shall be charged directly to the head coach regardless of the number of offenders.

My question. Is this penalized if the player with the illegal number has already played, and the illegal number is "discovered" while the "player" is on the bench (no longer in the game), i.e., must the player with the illegal number be "in the game" at the time of "discovery" to penalize?

[BlueDevilRef]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Why did the R, when checking the book, not say anything to the coach of black about the illegal number?

It was simply missed.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I found this (below) on my hard drive:

Technical fouls for illegal uniforms (including illegal numbers) are not charged to the team, but are charged directly to the head coach. If a team member participates as a player while wearing an illegal uniform, then a direct technical foul is charged to the head coach, who will lose the coaching box privilege for the remainder of the game. This infraction is penalized when discovered, and the team member with the illegal uniform may participate without further penalty and is not required to change the number. A maximum of one technical foul shall be charged directly to the head coach regardless of the number of offenders.

My question. Is this penalized if the player with the illegal number has already played, and the illegal number is "discovered" while the "player" is on the bench (no longer in the game), i.e., must the player with the illegal number be "in the game" at the time of "discovery" to penalize?

Somebody on the bench is not a "player".

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I found this (below) on my hard drive:

Technical fouls for illegal uniforms (including illegal numbers) are not charged to the team, but are charged directly to the head coach. If a team member participates as a player while wearing an illegal uniform, then a direct technical foul is charged to the head coach, who will lose the coaching box privilege for the remainder of the game. This infraction is penalized when discovered, and the team member with the illegal uniform may participate without further penalty and is not required to change the number. A maximum of one technical foul shall be charged directly to the head coach regardless of the number of offenders.

My question. Is this penalized if the player with the illegal number has already played, and the illegal number is "discovered" while the "player" is on the bench (no longer in the game), i.e., must the player with the illegal number be "in the game" at the time of "discovery" to penalize?

there's a case or interp on this, that Nevada will disagree with, that says (iirc) that if the player hasn't scored or committed a foul, then it's not a penalty.

[BlueDevilRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

My question. Is this penalized if the player with the illegal number has already played, and the illegal number is "discovered" while the "player" is on the bench (no longer in the game), i.e., must the player with the illegal number be "in the game" at the time of "discovery" to penalize?

This was my exact situation. #8 was in game but when I figured it out, he was on the bench. To me, that was the time of discovery and it should have been a direct T.

I realize we screwed up by missing it in the beginning. Can we please focus on penalty admin and my original issue of exactly what "when it occurs" vs "when discovered" and how those affect these types of T's

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

This was my exact situation. #8 was in game but when I figured it out, he was on the bench. To me, that was the time of discovery and it should have been a direct T.

I realize we screwed up by missing it in the beginning. Can we please focus on penalty admin and my original issue of exactly what "when it occurs" vs "when discovered" and how those affect these types of T's

3.4.3 sit B. (a) number 7 reports, enters and participates.-- Direct T to coach.
(b)changes to legal jersey and enters later. Team tech for changing number in book. C goes back to bench and never participates. No penalty when player "never enters game and scorebook is unaltered."

An illegal number is an illegal uniform. if you look at the coaches penalty section 10-6 you will see article 4 head coach "shall not allow team member participate with illegal uniform." PENALTY section 6 Says penalized when DISCOVERED.

Once your number 8 participates it violates 10-6-4. penalize when discovered. If you know he participated earlier i think you can penalize it when you discover/realize it.

If number 8 comes to table to report you tell him not a legal number you cannot participate. He goes and sits and nothing else done -no T at all. If coach wants him to play he is going to have to get him a legal uniform--change number in book.

Adding a number to the book or changing a number falls under the when it occurs portion of team tech. clear as mud. I'm sure i could have said that better.

ps. the play Bob mentioned deals with a player, 25, participating without number in book. He goes in and comes out of game. adding the number to the book is a when they occur team tech. case play says even though 25 participated no penalty unless he goes in again and then is added to book.

[Mark Padgett]

Many years ago I had an MS kids rec game (during a tournament) and one of the kids was warming up prior to the game while wearing #8 on his jersey. I went over to the coach to explain things to him and he asked me that if the kid put his jersey on "sideways" so the number would then be "infinity", would that be OK? It was obvious he was just trying to be funny so I told him it would be fine because "infinity" was on the acceptable number list, along with pi. He looked at me and said, "Are you serious?" We both just laughed.

BTW he found a "legal" jersey for the kid which was a good thing because that kid scored over 20 points.

[BlueDevilRef]

Ok, I've got some casebook research to do but:

When it occurs would basically mean if the player is in the game.....otherwise, no penalty?

When discovered is exactly that, no matter when the violation occurred, it is penalized as soon as we know it happened.

[SC Official]

There are three options when a team member is wearing an illegal number...

1) Participate with the illegal number–direct T on the head coach
2) Change to a legal number and change the number in the book–administrative T
3) Don't participate–no penalty

Bonus: Coach raises hell because "(S)HE'S WORN IT ALL SEASON!!!!"–direct T, then another one when the team member participates. Buh-bye, coach.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Somebody on the bench is not a "player".

Thus the quotes ("player").

[BillyMac]

*3.4.3 SITUATION B: A7 reports to the official scorer to enter the game wearing
a jersey with the No. 7, which is the number listed in the scorebook. A7 (a)
enters the game and participates; (b) changes into a legal jersey and enters the
game later; or (c) goes back to the bench and never enters the game. RULING: In
(a), a direct technical foul is charged to the Team A head coach for the illegal uniform.
Team B is awarded two free throws and a division-line throw-in, and the
Team A head coach loses his/her coaching-box privileges. In (b), a number must
be changed in the scorebook. Therefore, Team A is assessed a team technical foul
when the change occurs, but the coach does not lose his/her coaching-box privileges.
In (c), no penalty is assessed when the player never enters the game and
the scorebook is unaltered. (10-1-2c; 10-5-4)

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Thus the quotes ("player").

Misunderstood your post. Should have looked at the name and figured I missed something.

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