Situation

[PSU213]

OK, I want to make sure I'm not going brain dead on this situation, and I won't give my answer, as a don't want to "bias" the "jury." I had NF rules in mind, but NCAA rulings are more than welcome (just specify which, if there is a difference in the ruling).

1/10 from A's 20. A1 throws a screen pass that is caught by A2 at A's 15 yard line (legal forward pass). A2 then fumbles at A's 18 yard line, then recovers the ball at the 18 and runs out to the 50. After the pass was caught, but before A2 fumbled, A3 held B1 at A's 25 yard line. Ruling?

Thanks in advance.

[ref18]

So the penalty was holding and it occured before a first down was attained.

Therefore Team B has 2 options.

Accept the play decline the penalty.

Accept the penalty, 1/20 at the A10.

[Warrenkicker]

NF
Penalties are applied to the end of the related run when the foul occurred. If B accepts the penalty then it would be 1-21 from A-9. If they decline the penalty it will be 1-10 at the 50.

I think NCAA would have it 1-20 from A-10.

[MJT]

Originally posted by PSU213
OK, I want to make sure I'm not going brain dead on this situation, and I won't give my answer, as a don't want to "bias" the "jury." I had NF rules in mind, but NCAA rulings are more than welcome (just specify which, if there is a difference in the ruling).

1/10 from A's 20. A1 throws a screen pass that is caught by A2 at A's 15 yard line (legal forward pass). A2 then fumbles at A's 18 yard line, then recovers the ball at the 18 and runs out to the 50. After the pass was caught, but before A2 fumbled, A3 held B1 at A's 25 yard line. Ruling?

Thanks in advance.

Warrenkicker you are incorrect. The penalty is obviously enforced from the basic spot; the problem is where the basic spot is. 10-4-2b says the basic spot is “the previous spot for a foul which occurs during a loose ball play.” 10-3-1c says “a loose ball play is action during a backwards pass, illegal kick, or fumble made by A from in or behind the NZ and prior to a change of team possession.” So the penalty should be enforced from the PS. It would be 1-20 from the 10.

The same enforcement would occur if a QB is sacked behing the LOS, they facemask him, and he fumbles, PS enforcement. Same inforcement in NCAA.

PSU13, I hope this is what you were thinking.

[IAUMP]

MJT,

While I agree that Warren in wrong, I believe you are too. The original post states that the hold was prior to the fumble, thus during the running play. The basic spot is then either the end of the play or the spot of the hold, under the all but one rule. Since the play ended at the 50 but the hold was at As 25 the spot for enforcement is the 25. Therefore, you will have 1st and 15 from A's 15.

[MJT]

Originally posted by IAUMP
MJT,

While I agree that Warren in wrong, I believe you are too. The original post states that the hold was prior to the fumble, thus during the running play. The basic spot is then either the end of the play or the spot of the hold, under the all but one rule. Since the play ended at the 50 but the hold was at As 25 the spot for enforcement is the 25. Therefore, you will have 1st and 15 from A's 15.

Hold on, the fact that the hold occured before the fumble does not change the fact that it occured during a loose ball play. If the hold occured after he had picked up the fumble and was running, then you are correct 1-10 from the 15 cuz it would be a foul during a running play, but this occured during a loose ball play, not a running play.

Similar situation, if the hold occurs by the offense before the QB passes the ball, it is during a loose ball play and enforced from the PS. This is no different cuz it is a loose ball play as I stated by rule 10-3-1c.

Do you agree now?

[Jim S]

MJT is correct. A loose ball play includes the run(s) that preceed the loose ball. Also there may be multiple loose balls, and runs, during a loose ball play.
Any time you have an event that qualifies the play as a loose ball play all actions before that event are part of the loose ball play.

[Edited by Jim S on Dec 3rd, 2004 at 10:00 PM]

[James Neil]

Originally posted by IAUMP
MJT,

While I agree that Warren in wrong, I believe you are too. The original post states that the hold was prior to the fumble, thus during the running play. The basic spot is then either the end of the play or the spot of the hold, under the all but one rule. Since the play ended at the 50 but the hold was at As 25 the spot for enforcement is the 25. Therefore, you will have 1st and 15 from A's 15.

I believe you are wrong here IAUMP
This foul happened during a loose ball play because the fumble was behind the NZ and the foul occurred before the fumble. If the runner had been beyond the NZ then this would have been a running play. So the previous spot is the basic spot for this foul. Because the foul is beyond the BS we will enforce it from the BS, which is the previous spot. A will replay first down from the A-10 clock on the ready

[Warrenkicker]

I agree that I was wrong too. I just missed the fact that the fumble was behind the LOS. This is a previous spot enforcement.

This might be one of those wierd situations where NF, NCAA, and Canadian have the same outcome.

[IAUMP]

I stand corrected. Thanks to all for helping me get this straight.

[PSU213]

I was 99.9% certain that the foul occured during a loose ball play (a fumble by A behind the NZ before a COP), therefore the prev. spot is the basic spot (the 20), the foul is beyond the basic spot (at the 25), therefore, enforce the 10 yards from the previous spot as per the all-but-one principle.

Also, as a sidenote, I don't think the spot of the foul is ever a basic spot--please correct me if I am wrong.

[MJT]

Originally posted by PSU213
I was 99.9% certain that the foul occured during a loose ball play (a fumble by A behind the NZ before a COP), therefore the prev. spot is the basic spot (the 20), the foul is beyond the basic spot (at the 25), therefore, enforce the 10 yards from the previous spot as per the all-but-one principle.

Also, as a sidenote, I don't think the spot of the foul is ever a basic spot--please correct me if I am wrong.

You are correct, the spot of the foul is never the basic spot.
The basic spot is either
1. PS
2. end of kick, for PSK
3. end of the run
4. the succeeding spot, for USC, NP, DB, and TB's