Last Second Shot: Kansas State at Kansas

Originally Posted by dahoopref

Putting myself as the C in transition, the "travel" was probably missed due to the secondary defender (#32) setting up in the key as he would get my attention during the drive. I'm not sure why the L was rotating during the drive.

I can agree with your analysis of the Slot official. I understood why the Lead rotated -- he knew the amount of time remaining and correctly anticipated that there would be a layup play at the rim. He saw the offensive player coming down Slot side and got over there to have the best look at the play coming down the pipe. There are a LOT of hits on the arm that are missed between Lead and Slot during these drives down the weak side lane line (example: this NBA play from a couple years ago) and he got over there to see those.

[Nevadaref]

This is a blatant traveling violation. The player took FOUR steps after ending his dribble. It is unfortunate that the winning score resulted from this. The defense didn't have a fair chance.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This is a blatant traveling violation. The player took FOUR steps after ending his dribble. It is unfortunate that the winning score resulted from this. The defense didn't have a fair chance.

I don't think it is that blatant. I think and argument can be made that he did not actually end his dribble until his right foot is down. Then he steps with his left, jumps from that foot, and completes the layup. The play looks ugly because he lets the ball come up to his left shoulder, but until the point that his right hand touches the ball, we cannot know if he is going to legally dribble again, or end his dribble.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by johnny d

I don't think it is that blatant. I think and argument can be made that he did not actually end his dribble until his right foot is down. Then he steps with his left, jumps from that foot, and completes the layup. The play looks ugly because he lets the ball come up to his left shoulder, but until the point that his right hand touches the ball, we cannot know if he is going to legally dribble again, or end his dribble.

Agree. It happens quick in real time. Fact is. Lot of these type travels aren't called in college. Didn't see the r st of game but I'm betting this wasn't the only one not called.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by johnny d

I don't think it is that blatant. I think and argument can be made that he did not actually end his dribble until his right foot is down. Then he steps with his left, jumps from that foot, and completes the layup. The play looks ugly because he lets the ball come up to his left shoulder, but until the point that his right hand touches the ball, we cannot know if he is going to legally dribble again, or end his dribble.

I see the same possibility. Told some folks that in a non-officiating forum. Definitely not 4 steps. The earliest he may have gathered is with the left foot down followed by a right foot-left foot step sequence, which would be a travel. But I could see an argument for that the gather wasn't complete until the right foot was down.

Bottom line, it's not as blatant as people want to make it seem. As Adam pointed out, the high dribble throws it off.

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[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I see the same possibility. Told some folks that in a non-officiating forum. Definitely not 4 steps. The earliest he may have gathered is with the left foot down followed by a right foot-left foot step sequence, which would be a travel. But I could see an argument for that the gather wasn't complete until the right foot was down.

Bottom line, it's not as blatant as people want to make it seem. As Adam pointed out, the high dribble throws it off.

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Count me in the camp that thinks this was not a travel, or perhaps a very marginal one at best. Not blatant. Also, it took me looking at the play in slow motion ten times to come to that conclusion, which says something. If I'm the slot and I'm not 110% sure in that situation, my lips are sealed.

What looks bad isn't always bad. I've had lots of occasions where I thought I might have missed a travel (as did one bench and half the crowd), only to look at the video later and determine that I indeed did not miss it. Of course I've also confirmed some of my own NCIs, but we won't talk about that.

Bottom line is that these types of travels are very hard to have a reasonable level of certainty on, especially when focusing on torsos and restricted areas at the same time. Many of them get missed. Maybe Steve Kerr is on to something with the idea of assigning a fourth official that focuses solely on travels. Not that I ever want that idea to come to fruition....

[dahoopref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Bottom line, it's not as blatant as people want to make it seem. As Adam pointed out, the high dribble throws it off.

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Bottom line is that these types of travels are very hard to have a reasonable level of certainty on, especially when focusing on torsos and restricted areas at the same time. Many of them get missed.

Thanks for the input fellas, lots of "bottom line" opinions.

I'm on the side with you guys as it's not as easy a call on the floor to make as it seems.

The peers in my area are of the mindset on this type of play (and I'm one to agree with): "I'd rather miss a violation that IS there, than call a violation that IS NOT there."

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This is a blatant traveling violation. The player took FOUR steps after ending his dribble. It is unfortunate that the winning score resulted from this. The defense didn't have a fair chance.

WRONG.

Not even close to four steps. At most it's a pivot foot lifted and returned, no worse than any other travel.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Rich

WRONG.

Not even close to four steps. At most it's a pivot foot lifted and returned, no worse than any other travel.

He ended the dribble with the right foot on the floor (right foot the piviot) and stepped to his left, his right (travel), and then his left one more time.

So, it is more than a basic travel of lifting the pivot and returning it. He did that and still took one more.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

He ended the dribble with the right foot on the floor (right foot the piviot) and stepped to his left, his right (travel), and then his left one more time.

So, it is more than a basic travel of lifting the pivot and returning it. He did that and still took one more.

I have the left as the pivot.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Rich

I have the left as the pivot.

My image wasn't loading right when you replied. Look at it now...ball clearly in both hands with the right foot down just after the left came up....before 3 more steps.

The only way the left was the pivot is if he actually caught it before my first screenshot....but that would make it even worse.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

My image wasn't loading right when you replied. Look at it now...ball clearly in both hands with the right foot down just after the left came up....before 3 more steps.

At the risk of sounding like someone else here, I still have the left as the pivot. Regardless, it's still a travel.

[BigCat]

If I slow it down. He may have touched ball with two hands ending dribble, 5 feet outside 3 line.

I don't like slowing it down because I don't referee in slow mo. It happens so fast and, again, at that level they are accepting that it is ok. I wish we had a view of Weber to see if he is screaming travel. As I mentioned earlier, I called a euro step travel next play down my partner doesn't. Problem.

If it's allowed on both ends it isn't a complaint. I don't like it but as I've said before, it does the game no good if I'm the only person calling travel.

There's no doubt this was travel.

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

He ended the dribble with the right foot on the floor (right foot the piviot) and stepped to his left, his right (travel), and then his left one more time.

So, it is more than a basic travel of lifting the pivot and returning it. He did that and still took one more.

Unless there had been travel calls on similar plays throughout the game, I probably would have passed on it and then wondered if I got it correct. With that much time, I am probably more focused on whether the player got the shot off in time or whether any contact is marginal or not. Then again, I've never worked a game with the benefit of having instant replay to determine whether the horn sounded first.

I think it comes down to when the dribble ends and I don't think the dribbler has two hands on the ball in the first picture. It looks like it in the picture near the half-court logo, but not when you watch the replay (around :28). He might not have two hands on the ball until both feet are in the air around the three point line (generous interpretation). Then, each foot touches the floor once, which would make this a correct no call.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JeffM

I think it comes down to when the dribble ends and I don't think the dribbler has two hands on the ball in the first picture. It looks like it in the picture near the half-court logo, but not when you watch the replay (around :28). He might not have two hands on the ball until both feet are in the air around the three point line (generous interpretation). Then, each foot touches the floor once, which would make this a correct no call.

First, two hands on the ball isn't necessary. When the ball comes to rest in one hand, the player is holding the ball and the travel rules come into effect.

However, even if we go by your opinion of when the player got two hands on the ball, it is still a travel.

For it to not be a travel, he would have had to catch it no sooner than near the FT line where the right foot is coming down.