Condescending Coach

[VaTerp]

This is nothing more than passive aggressive "talking to the officials through my kids" technique.

I usually ignore it the first time, address it if I'm close to the coach the next time I hear it (coach, you're not gonna talk to me through your kids....), whack if needed.

I've served some T for this a handful of times before when its been constant or particularly loud. But for the most part, I find this is something that a coach will try once or twice but usually get the message when Johnny is on the bench with 3 fouls in the 1st half.

[so cal lurker]

I think some of these comments are for the referees but some are in fact for the kid.

When coaching kids baseball, I have said "great pitch" on a ball -- but not to challenge the umpire, but because a ball that just misses can be a great pitch.

Similarly, when coaching hoops, I have said "great defense" when a foul was called, not necessarily because I'm disagreeing with the foul, but because there are players who need to play closer to the foul line than they naturally do and as a coach I think it is completely OK that the player got the foul -- maybe it was close, maybe I didn't agree, but I want that kid to play with that level of aggression and not back off because he happened to get a foul.

To be clear, I'm *not* disagreeing that there are coaches who are using those comments to bait referees -- there *clearly* are. But not all of those comments have anything to do with referees. (And yes, I have this perspective as both a coach and a referee.)

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

I think some of these comments are for the referees but some are in fact for the kid.

When coaching kids baseball, I have said "great pitch" on a ball -- but not to challenge the umpire, but because a ball that just misses can be a great pitch.

Similarly, when coaching hoops, I have said "great defense" when a foul was called, not necessarily because I'm disagreeing with the foul, but because there are players who need to play closer to the foul line than they naturally do and as a coach I think it is completely OK that the player got the foul -- maybe it was close, maybe I didn't agree, but I want that kid to play with that level of aggression and not back off because he happened to get a foul.

To be clear, I'm *not* disagreeing that there are coaches who are using those comments to bait referees -- there *clearly* are. But not all of those comments have anything to do with referees. (And yes, I have this perspective as both a coach and a referee.)

This is precisely why I tend to ignore this comment unless it becomes persistent.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

I think some of these comments are for the referees but some are in fact for the kid.

When coaching kids baseball, I have said "great pitch" on a ball -- but not to challenge the umpire, but because a ball that just misses can be a great pitch.

Similarly, when coaching hoops, I have said "great defense" when a foul was called, not necessarily because I'm disagreeing with the foul, but because there are players who need to play closer to the foul line than they naturally do and as a coach I think it is completely OK that the player got the foul -- maybe it was close, maybe I didn't agree, but I want that kid to play with that level of aggression and not back off because he happened to get a foul.

To be clear, I'm *not* disagreeing that there are coaches who are using those comments to bait referees -- there *clearly* are. But not all of those comments have anything to do with referees. (And yes, I have this perspective as both a coach and a referee.)

I have the benefit of a coaching perspective in addition to an officiating perspective as well and think I'm pretty good at discerning the difference between genuinely talking to the kids and trying to talk to us through the kids.

If a coach says something like, "way to move your feet, or good defense" then asks me what the kid did wrong then I have no problem answering them.

Just last night I had a foul on a play where a post defender established LGP, moved his feet well laterally to maintain position, but then brought his arm down to contest the shot and made illegal contact on the shooters arm. Coach asked me what he did and I said "he was legal until he brought his arm down." And the coach conveyed that to the kid. That's good coaching and communication for coach, official, and player.

I had another play last week where I called a block on a play that I probably could have passed on. Coach, who I know pretty well, was a little excited and yelled "great job, Johnny." After reporting, coach says to me, "what did he do wrong?" I responded that the dribbler got his head and shoulders past the defenders torso at the time of contact. He politely disagreed, I said something else to him as I backed away, and he responded, "I hear ya but I'm just excited b/c we been trying to get him to move his feet like that since the summer." No issue, we all move on.

So again, I get the coaching perspective. Sometimes they are innocuous comments reacting to their players, which is why I usually ignore comments like this for the most part. But I've been doing this long enough to know the difference between that and talking to us through their players. And the coaches know the difference as well. They often like to act like they don't though. This, and when it becomes repetitive, is when we have problems.

[Pantherdreams]

Originally Posted by Welpe

This is precisely why I tend to ignore this comment unless it becomes persistent.

Persistence in comments and phrasing in every situation becomes important.

A couple of instances:

Last weekend had a game A1 was way out of control on fast break. B1 just stood in front of the backboard and got run over on a layup attempt. Easy PC. As we are headed the other way A1 coach is up and screaming "She can't just stand there and not play defense . . . " as I look up thinking T for the tone and where it might be headed I saw him stalking B1 down the floor still hollering "you need to pull up two feet shorter under control and finish that. You just bailed her out. All she had to be on that play was unathletic and in the way." So cleary he was coaching his kids. (I've got nothing here.)

Later in the weekend. Had Team A's stud. Jump up and try to shock a ball screen takes it hard in the numbers but was moving into the ball handler. My partner comes up with a block. Coach shouts to his player "Thats what we want to see on defesne. I thought you got there, they didn't. Keep trying to make that play." I don't think that is passive aggressive or criticism, just coaching. Maybe I'm too thick skinned. (I've got nothing here.)


Monday night: Coach B to her player in transition "They are going to be allowed to pass and crash all night. And they (us) are going to let them. Keep putting your body there but we are going to have talk early to get the switch. Play moved on so we didn't stop, but I did go to coach during a dead ball next trip and ask her to make sure she was coaching her players and not the officials. I wasn't going to be able to talk her if she was making judgements about our integrity or ability. She sat down. (If this happens persistently or again after we talk it is going to be a T.)

[Adam]

I see a big difference between most of these legitimate coaching comments ("way to move your feet", "good defense", etc., and "you keep doing that jonny, your feet were set." As VaTerp noted, it gets easy to discern the difference after time. My default setting is to hear them as legitimate coaching comments, so if the coach is trying to be passive-aggressive, I'm not going to catch it. I trust my judgment to be able to say that if I think he's being a p/a jerk, he's likely being a p/a jerk.

[jeremy341a]

Last year, I called a few fouls in a row which resulted on a players second foul in the first period. Coach complained and life went on went to the other end then came back and he complained some more. I told him enough. Went back to other end and when I came back was C in front of his bench. He couldn't have been more than 2 foot from me and said in an angry loud voice "now I got a kid who can't play bc I can't trust you."

After I called the T he looked at me and said I was talking to my kids.

[BigT]

Great call he was talking to you.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

Last year, I called a few fouls in a row which resulted on a players second foul in the first period. Coach complained and life went on went to the other end then came back and he complained some more. I told him enough. Went back to other end and when I came back was C in front of his bench. He couldn't have been more than 2 foot from me and said in an angry loud voice "now I got a kid who can't play bc I can't trust you."

After I called the T he looked at me and said I was talking to my kids.

And instead of using the T to calm himself down, now he's insulting your intelligence. Love it when they double down on stupid.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by Adam

And instead of using the T to calm himself down, now he's insulting your intelligence. Love it when they double down on stupid.

Ya can't fix stupid!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

Ya can't fix stupid!

But you can sometimes silence it.

[BigT]

Had a small school BJV coach who was getting mouthy so I asked him to slow down on the comments and he sarcastically laughed at me. I ignored him and told my partner. So temped to serve T when its sub varsity on that.

Any thoughts.

Then Monday I had a freshman coach in a tight game getting more vocal and gesturing more. One point he didnt like a no call and threw his pen at the bench.

That was easy enough.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigT

Had a small school BJV coach who was getting mouthy so I asked him to slow down on the comments and he sarcastically laughed at me. I ignored him and told my partner. So temped to serve T when its sub varsity on that.

Any thoughts.

Then Monday I had a freshman coach in a tight game getting more vocal and gesturing more. One point he didnt like a no call and threw his pen at the bench.

That was easy enough.

With the laugh, I'd likely ignore that and allow him to decide whether to actually listen to you.

[RedAndWhiteRef]

Originally Posted by Adam

With the laugh, I'd likely ignore that and allow him to decide whether to actually listen to you.

I'm not sure, if a coach laughed in my face that would be hard to pass on. I'd grudgingly ignore it, but he has zero leash the rest of the game if he does something like that (which I guess is what you meant by your last part of the sentence).

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RedAndWhiteRef

I'm not sure, if a coach laughed in my face that would be hard to pass on. I'd grudgingly ignore it, but he has zero leash the rest of the game if he does something like that (which I guess is what you meant by your last part of the sentence).

Yep.