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Old Sat Oct 01, 2016, 08:45am
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AP Arrow

Situation: Team A adds a player to their score book. Team Technical foul on Team A. The game starts with 2 foul shots by a team B member followed by a throw-in by B1.

Question: when does the AP arrow get switched? I'd like a rule reference.

I've been told conflicting things by different (respected) officials.
One was that it's a normal AP throw in and the arrow gets switched when the throw in ends like normal.
I was also told that the arrow gets switched immediately after B1 has the ball in his/her hands. The reason being that this is the initial starting of team possession so switch the arrow to A's basket before the ball is thrown in. Rule 4-3 Art. 3b?! What are free throws for a non-common foul in this situation?

Any help would be appreciated.
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Old Sat Oct 01, 2016, 09:44am
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The arrow doesn't get switched since it hasn't been set. Team B gets 2 FT's, plus the ball to start the game. The arrow is set to team A to begin the game since B has the initial possession.
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Old Sat Oct 01, 2016, 10:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burtis449 View Post
Situation: Team A adds a player to their score book. Team Technical foul on Team A. The game starts with 2 foul shots by a team B member followed by a throw-in by B1.

Question: when does the AP arrow get switched? I'd like a rule reference.

I've been told conflicting things by different (respected) officials.
One was that it's a normal AP throw in and the arrow gets switched when the throw in ends like normal.
I was also told that the arrow gets switched immediately after B1 has the ball in his/her hands. The reason being that this is the initial starting of team possession so switch the arrow to A's basket before the ball is thrown in. Rule 4-3 Art. 3b?! What are free throws for a non-common foul in this situation?

Any help would be appreciated.
You started the game with 2 technical free throws. Those are FTs for a "non common foul." You have the right rule section. When you hand the ball to team B for the throw in the arrow is set for the first time towards team A.
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Old Sat Oct 01, 2016, 02:41pm
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Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
You started the game with 2 technical free throws. Those are FTs for a "non common foul." You have the right rule section. When you hand the ball to team B for the throw in the arrow is set for the first time towards team A.
In other words, when the ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower.

Again, Rule 4-3 is only employed in setting the arrow's initial direction, which happens at the beginning of the game or any extra period. 6-4-4 describes how the arrow is switched on an AP throw-in, which accounts for the vast majority of situations in which the scorer does something with the arrow.
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Old Sun Oct 02, 2016, 07:49pm
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A) In the situation being discussed, with the arrow having been set to Team A, if on the ensuing throw-in, A2 and B2 simultaneously catch the ball, which team has the opportunity to attempt the subsequent throw-in?

B) On an alternating throw-in, other than the situation discussed above, with the arrow indicating that team B gets the opportunity to attempt the throw-in, if the throw-in by B1 is simultaneously caught by B2 and A2, which team has the subsequent throw-in? And when is the arrow switched?
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Last edited by Rob1968; Sun Oct 02, 2016 at 07:53pm.
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Old Sun Oct 02, 2016, 08:35pm
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Originally Posted by Rob1968 View Post
A) In the situation being discussed, with the arrow having been set to Team A, if on the ensuing throw-in, A2 and B2 simultaneously catch the ball, which team has the opportunity to attempt the subsequent throw-in?

B) On an alternating throw-in, other than the situation discussed above, with the arrow indicating that team B gets the opportunity to attempt the throw-in, if the throw-in by B1 is simultaneously caught by B2 and A2, which team has the subsequent throw-in? And when is the arrow switched?
A. It was set towards A when handed to B1 for the throw in. When B1 throws it in and A2 and B2 grab it simultaneously we go to the arrow. It is now an AP throw in for A. When you set the arrow the first time in the game towards A when it is handed tothrower B1 the arrow isn't changed when that throw in ends.


B. When B1s alternating throw in is simultaneously caught by B2 and A2 that AP throw in is over. Arrow goes to A. A gets the AP throw in from A2 and B2 simultaneously catching B1 throw in. If B1 would have held the ball over the boundary and A1 grabbed it and both held on, that AP throw in would not have ended and B gets it again for the AP throw in. That's a case play somewhere.
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Old Sun Oct 02, 2016, 09:16pm
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I believe BigCat is exactly right. Good scenario, Rob! I'd never thought about that comparison before.


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Old Sun Oct 02, 2016, 09:30pm
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I agree.
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Old Sun Oct 02, 2016, 09:57pm
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I agree.
I also agree. I worked a couple of games yesterday, as a mentor, with newer officials. These are the kinds of scenarios that need to be understood, before we see them on the court.
Big Cat's response is excellent, and I'm certain that the stated differences, and the situation in the B) answer will help someone in the upcoming season.
I constantly invite officials to check out the threads on this site. The wide ranging experience and knowledge, here, is priceless.

Case Book 4.3.3, 4.42.5, 6.4.1 Sit. A, 6.4.5 Sit. A, are of note in the discussion.

6.4.5 Sit. B concerns the the situation of the thrower holding the ball through the end-line or side-line plane.
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Old Mon Oct 03, 2016, 11:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob1968 View Post
I also agree. I worked a couple of games yesterday, as a mentor, with newer officials. These are the kinds of scenarios that need to be understood, before we see them on the court.
Big Cat's response is excellent, and I'm certain that the stated differences, and the situation in the B) answer will help someone in the upcoming season.
I constantly invite officials to check out the threads on this site. The wide ranging experience and knowledge, here, is priceless.

Case Book 4.3.3, 4.42.5, 6.4.1 Sit. A, 6.4.5 Sit. A, are of note in the discussion.

6.4.5 Sit. B concerns the the situation of the thrower holding the ball through the end-line or side-line plane.
I don't think this is a scenario we need to burden a first year official with. There's enough to learn before we start discussing plays they might, maybe, possibly see once in their entire careers.
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Old Mon Oct 03, 2016, 02:52pm
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This play is being over thought.

The NFHS, NCAA Men's/Women's, and FIBA Rules state how the AP Arrow is initially set and there are three ways.

Situation #1: The situation that happens about 99.99% of the time: A2 is the first Player to gain Play Control of the Ball during a Jump Ball or after a Jump Ball has ended.

Situation #2: The AP Arrow is set toward Team B's Basket (Team A's Basket under FIBA Rules), when the Ball is placed at the disposal of A1 for the Free Throws for a Common Foul committed before a Player from either Team gained PC of the Ball during a Jump Ball or after a Jump Ball has ended. This Situation can only happen at the start of an Overtime Period.

Situation #3: The AP Arrow is set toward Team B's Basket (Team A's Basket under FIBA Rules), when the Ball is placed at the disposal of the Thrower, A1, for any Situation that is not either Situation #1 or Situation #2.

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Old Mon Oct 03, 2016, 03:08pm
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Originally Posted by Adam View Post
I don't think this is a scenario we need to burden a first year official with. There's enough to learn before we start discussing plays they might, maybe, possibly see once in their entire careers.
*But that ''first and only time" this first year Official has to adjudicate upon this type of occurrence/event could occur in the very first game that they officiate --thus, worthwhile to at least offer our input no?
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Old Mon Oct 03, 2016, 03:19pm
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Originally Posted by Kansas Ref View Post
*But that ''first and only time" this first year Official has to adjudicate upon this type of occurrence/event could occur in the very first game that they officiate --thus, worthwhile to at least offer our input no?
I think there are a lot more common occurrences/events to go over with a first year official that would beneficial rather than burden them with a rather rare scenario.
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Old Mon Oct 03, 2016, 03:21pm
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Originally Posted by Kansas Ref View Post
*But that ''first and only time" this first year Official has to adjudicate upon this type of occurrence/event could occur in the very first game that they officiate --thus, worthwhile to at least offer our input no?
Assuming his partner is an experienced official, that partner should step in if this situation presents itself.

I'm a huge advocate for knowing the rules, but I'm also an advocate for incremental knowledge. There are some situations that the veteran official will simply need to handle in the rare case that they pop up.

If you're putting two rookies on the same game, then you'll just have to take a chance that they might in fact screw up a ruling on a bigfoot play. I'm ok with that, especially when the ruling is on which team gets the AP to start the game.
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Last edited by Adam; Mon Oct 03, 2016 at 03:24pm. Reason: clarity
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Old Mon Oct 03, 2016, 03:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
This play is being over thought.

The NFHS, NCAA Men's/Women's, and FIBA Rules state how the AP Arrow is initially set and there are three ways.

Situation #1: The situation that happens about 99.99% of the time: A2 is the first Player to gain Play Control of the Ball during a Jump Ball or after a Jump Ball has ended.

Situation #2: The AP Arrow is set toward Team B's Basket (Team A's Basket under FIBA Rules), when the Ball is placed at the disposal of A1 for the Free Throws for a Common Foul committed before a Player from either Team gained PC of the Ball during a Jump Ball or after a Jump Ball has ended. This Situation can only happen at the start of an Overtime Period.

Situation #3: The AP Arrow is set toward Team B's Basket (Team A's Basket under FIBA Rules), when the Ball is placed at the disposal of the Thrower, A1, for any Situation that is not either Situation #1 or Situation #2.

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You might want to change your #1. By definition, there is no player or team control during a jump ball. thx 4-12-6
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