AP Arrow

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

I also agree. I worked a couple of games yesterday, as a mentor, with newer officials. These are the kinds of scenarios that need to be understood, before we see them on the court.
Big Cat's response is excellent, and I'm certain that the stated differences, and the situation in the B) answer will help someone in the upcoming season.
I constantly invite officials to check out the threads on this site. The wide ranging experience and knowledge, here, is priceless.

Case Book 4.3.3, 4.42.5, 6.4.1 Sit. A, 6.4.5 Sit. A, are of note in the discussion.

6.4.5 Sit. B concerns the the situation of the thrower holding the ball through the end-line or side-line plane.

I don't think this is a scenario we need to burden a first year official with. There's enough to learn before we start discussing plays they might, maybe, possibly see once in their entire careers.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

This play is being over thought.

The NFHS, NCAA Men's/Women's, and FIBA Rules state how the AP Arrow is initially set and there are three ways.

Situation #1: The situation that happens about 99.99% of the time: A2 is the first Player to gain Play Control of the Ball during a Jump Ball or after a Jump Ball has ended.

Situation #2: The AP Arrow is set toward Team B's Basket (Team A's Basket under FIBA Rules), when the Ball is placed at the disposal of A1 for the Free Throws for a Common Foul committed before a Player from either Team gained PC of the Ball during a Jump Ball or after a Jump Ball has ended. This Situation can only happen at the start of an Overtime Period.

Situation #3: The AP Arrow is set toward Team B's Basket (Team A's Basket under FIBA Rules), when the Ball is placed at the disposal of the Thrower, A1, for any Situation that is not either Situation #1 or Situation #2.

MTD, Sr.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

This play is being over thought.

The NFHS, NCAA Men's/Women's, and FIBA Rules state how the AP Arrow is initially set and there are three ways.

Situation #1: The situation that happens about 99.99% of the time: A2 is the first Player to gain Play Control of the Ball during a Jump Ball or after a Jump Ball has ended.

Situation #2: The AP Arrow is set toward Team B's Basket (Team A's Basket under FIBA Rules), when the Ball is placed at the disposal of A1 for the Free Throws for a Common Foul committed before a Player from either Team gained PC of the Ball during a Jump Ball or after a Jump Ball has ended. This Situation can only happen at the start of an Overtime Period.

Situation #3: The AP Arrow is set toward Team B's Basket (Team A's Basket under FIBA Rules), when the Ball is placed at the disposal of the Thrower, A1, for any Situation that is not either Situation #1 or Situation #2.

MTD, Sr.

You might want to change your #1. By definition, there is no player or team control during a jump ball. thx 4-12-6

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigCat

You might want to change your #1. By definition, there is no player or team control during a jump ball. thx 4-12-6

A1 grabs the ball right off the tip (doesn't even bounce). First touch is the act of catching the ball. This is gaining control "during" the jump ball, thus ending the jump ball by gaining control.

A1 grabs the ball after it bounces off of at least one jumper or the floor. This is gaining control after the jump ball has ended.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Adam

A1 grabs the ball right off the tip (doesn't even bounce). First touch is the act of catching the ball. This is gaining control "during" the jump ball, thus ending the jump ball by gaining control.

A1 grabs the ball after it bounces off of at least one jumper or the floor. This is gaining control after the jump ball has ended.

i understand factually what your saying/describing. i said he might want to change it because the rule says word for word that there is no team or player control "during" a jump ball. id just not say "during" because of the way the rule is written. The rule drafters, by the way they have written the rule, have declared that the act that ENDS the jump ball, in your example the grab/possession by A1, is not considered "during." Everything before that moment is during.....

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

This play is being over thought.

The NFHS, NCAA Men's/Women's, and FIBA Rules state how the AP Arrow is initially set and there are three ways.

Situation #1: The situation that happens about 99.99% of the time: A2 is the first Player to gain Play Control of the Ball during a Jump Ball or after a Jump Ball has ended.

Situation #2: The AP Arrow is set toward Team B's Basket (Team A's Basket under FIBA Rules), when the Ball is placed at the disposal of A1 for the Free Throws for a Common Foul committed before a Player from either Team gained PC of the Ball during a Jump Ball or after a Jump Ball has ended. This Situation can only happen at the start of an Overtime Period.

Situation #3: The AP Arrow is set toward Team B's Basket (Team A's Basket under FIBA Rules), when the Ball is placed at the disposal of the Thrower, A1, for any Situation that is not either Situation #1 or Situation #2.

MTD, Sr.

Originally Posted by BigCat

You might want to change your #1. By definition, there is no player or team control during a jump ball. thx 4-12-6

I did not say that there was PC during a JB. I said gain PC during a JB, which ends the JB.

MTD, Sr.

[Kansas Ref]

Originally Posted by Adam

I don't think this is a scenario we need to burden a first year official with. There's enough to learn before we start discussing plays they might, maybe, possibly see once in their entire careers.

*But that ''first and only time" this first year Official has to adjudicate upon this type of occurrence/event could occur in the very first game that they officiate --thus, worthwhile to at least offer our input no?

[APG]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

*But that ''first and only time" this first year Official has to adjudicate upon this type of occurrence/event could occur in the very first game that they officiate --thus, worthwhile to at least offer our input no?

I think there are a lot more common occurrences/events to go over with a first year official that would beneficial rather than burden them with a rather rare scenario.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by APG

I think there are a lot more common occurrences/events to go over with a first year official that would beneficial rather than burden them with a rather rare scenario.

Originally Posted by Adam

I don't think this is a scenario we need to burden a first year official with. There's enough to learn before we start discussing plays they might, maybe, possibly see once in their entire careers.

Respectfully disagree for two reasons:

1. We're all benefiting from this discussion because of the inquisitiveness of a rookie. Good for the rookie. I'd work with him any day because I can tell he cares about his craft.

2. Scenarios like this, though rare, do more than just help us through a once-in-a-career situation. They challenge us to contemplate the logic of definitions and their connections to the rest of the rules. This, IMHO, is where the real learning value lies, for rookies and veterans alike.


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[Adam]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Respectfully disagree for two reasons:

1. We're all benefiting from this discussion because of the inquisitiveness of a rookie. Good for the rookie. I'd work with him any day because I can tell he cares about his craft.

2. Scenarios like this, though rare, do more than just help us through a once-in-a-career situation. They challenge us to contemplate the logic of definitions and their connections to the rest of the rules. This, IMHO, is where the real learning value lies, for rookies and veterans alike.


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I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed here in this forum. Rookies who participate here have a leg up on the competition with regard to rules knowledge.

I'm saying there's no reason to bring situations like this up in pregame meetings, or in large group rules clinics. There are ton of other rules that need to be addressed first. With a rookie, I'd rather discuss common myths and misconceptions.

Talk to a rookie about LGP. Talk to her about positioning. Discuss the fact that you can't travel unless you're holding the ball. Discuss the standards for calling a foul vs letting the contact go uncalled. Talk about the merits of a patient whistle.

Until those things are down pat, we're wasting time talking about the sasquatches of the basketball world.

No need to discuss multiple fouls, indirect technical fouls, the rare situation in the OP, or other big foot plays. For those plays, it's easy for the veteran to initiate a quick conference and take control.

Yes, there is benefit to discussing these plays, I just don't see a need for most rookies to focus their efforts here. When the exception asks questions in a forum like this, then by all means have the discussion.

My main disagreement is with the idea that young officials need to understand these situations before stepping on the court.

That's just my opinion, though. I think reasonable people can disagree.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

*But that ''first and only time" this first year Official has to adjudicate upon this type of occurrence/event could occur in the very first game that they officiate --thus, worthwhile to at least offer our input no?

Assuming his partner is an experienced official, that partner should step in if this situation presents itself.

I'm a huge advocate for knowing the rules, but I'm also an advocate for incremental knowledge. There are some situations that the veteran official will simply need to handle in the rare case that they pop up.

If you're putting two rookies on the same game, then you'll just have to take a chance that they might in fact screw up a ruling on a bigfoot play. I'm ok with that, especially when the ruling is on which team gets the AP to start the game.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

*But that ''first and only time" this first year Official has to adjudicate upon this type of occurrence/event could occur in the very first game that they officiate --thus, worthwhile to at least offer our input no?

True story. Very first paid game I ever worked was military intramural game. Opening tap leads to a breakaway lay-up for A1, B1 slaps the opposite side of the backboard as the ball is going through the basket. I call a T. My veteran partner over-rules me.

I believe it's the only time in my career I've whistled a T for that.