Four questions

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by deecee

We are paid the big bucks to determine if a player was passing or shooting. The expectation when a player goes airborne and it's towards the basket (or they are open and facing the basket) it's a shot attempt. 9999 out of 10000 times it's clear as day. I'm ok getting that 1 time wrong.

What I am saying is that if a player is at the top of the key, goes up with ball and looks like he is going to shoot it, but the ball slips out of his hands and flies behind him that is not a try and a loss of team control. That's a fumble. If the ball went backward into the BC and offense was first to touch it i would call BC violation. He was going to shoot it but he didn't get a shot off. it slipped. I watch the whole play. Just because he started a motion upward with the ball that could be interpreted as a shot doesn't mean that everything that follows IS a shot/try, imo. The ball in the OP was fumbled backwards. I don't call that a try and thus a loss of team control. thx

[Camron Rust]

Once the ball is no longer in player control and it was not released on a try, the player is no longer attempting to score and it is no longer a try. The player is also not an airborne shooter because he/she didn't release the ball on a try.

[BillyMac]

4-41-4: The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the
throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball
becomes dead.

In the case of the fumbled (slipped) "attempt", was it ever a try, and if so, it no longer is a try when it was "certain" that the throw is "unsuccessful"?

Couldn't it have been a try for the split second that the player had the ball in his hand, as determined by the official ("A1 jumps to attempt") to be an attempt, but then the try ends a split second later when the ball is fumbled (slips)?

Remember, in the official’s judgment, if the player is attempting to throw for goal, then that, by definition, is a try, not matter how pretty, ugly, successful, or unsuccessful the attempt may be.

In any case, it's all academic because if the try is never released, then team control doesn't end.

Unless, of course, somebody tries to convince us that the slip (fumble) was a "release".

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4-41-4: The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the
throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball
becomes dead.

In the case of the fumbled (slipped) "attempt", was it ever a try, and if so, it no longer is a try when it was "certain" that the throw is "unsuccessful"?

Couldn't it have been a try for the split second that the player had the ball in his hand, as determined by the official ("A1 jumps to attempt") to be an attempt, but then the try ends a split second later when the ball is fumbled (slips)?

Remember, in the official’s judgment, if the player is attempting to throw for goal, then that, by definition, is a try, not matter how pretty, ugly, successful, or unsuccessful the attempt may be.

In any case, it's all academic because if the try is never released, then team control doesn't end.

Unless, of course, somebody tries to convince us that the slip (fumble) was a "release".

See what Cameron said. Watch the whole play. If there is a foul while player is going up then you have to make a decision. Otherwise wait to see what happens and that will tell you what to do. Again, a fumble is a fumble....I'm fine with these debates but you might consider PM ing some folks. I think, at least on this issue, you might be bringing more confusion... Thx

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

... a fumble is a fumble....

Agree. But can a try, i.e., an attempt to throw for a goal (habitual throwing movement to start a try), precede a fumble (slip)?

[Nevadaref]

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...mpt-video.html

[RefBob]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...mpt-video.html

Looks like in the video the official called an illegal dribble violation. Maybe because white touched the ball twice before it hit the floor? I want to make sure that I understand the possible interpretations of the OP that are being discussed in this thread.

First, A1 was attempting a try and it ended very badly in a fumble. Nevertheless, because A1 was attempting a try he could recover (rebound) the ball and dribble (even if he had dribbled before).

Second, A1's fumble was not a try for goal, but because it was a fumble he could recover the ball and dribble (if he had not dribbled before).

Third, A1 was an airborne shooter, and his only options were to pass or attempt a try. If in the official's opinion, the fumble was not a try then it would be a violation for A1 to recover the ball. (Presumably, because this would be a traveling violation because A1 started a dribble with his pivot foot off the floor?)

Thanks.