Four questions

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4-41: Shooting, Try, Tap
ART. 1 The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try
or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne
shooter.
ART. 2 A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three
points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal
when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or
attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand
as a foul could prevent release of the ball.
ART. 3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually
precedes the release of the ball.

Are we 100% certain that situation 1 and 2 do not represent trys?

When I catch the ball and start to raise it up to shoot or pass..and then defender hits my arm you as referee have to make judgment. Was I shooting or passing. If I start bringing ball up and mean to shoot or pass...but it slips out of my hand...it is a slip/fumble. It was going to be a try or pass but it ended up a "slip/fumble." Not a try

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

When I catch the ball and start to raise it up to shoot or pass..and then defender hits my arm you as referee have to make judgment. Was I shooting or passing. If I start bringing ball up and mean to shoot or pass...but it slips out of my hand...it is a slip/fumble. It was going to be a try or pass but it ended up a "slip/fumble." Not a try

Sounds good, but I'm still hung up on the word "attempt", both in sj's post, and in the written rule. sj is actually calling this a shot attempt. In sj's (an official) "judgment" the player is "attempting to throw for goal", words right there in Rule 4-41.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Sounds good, but I'm still hung up on the word "attempt", both in sj's post, and in the written rule. sj is actually calling this a shot attempt. In sj's (an official) "judgment" the player is "attempting to throw for goal", words right there in Rule 4-41.

He is "attempting" to try for goal. If he's fouled before ball slips give him 2. If the ball slips..he was "attempting" to try for goal but it is not a try. Slip. Attempting a try and bring a try are fifferent here....

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Attempting a try and bring a try are different here....

4-41: Shooting, Try, Tap
ART. 1 The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try
or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne
shooter.
ART. 2 A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three
points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal
when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or
attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand
as a foul could prevent release of the ball.
ART. 3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually
precedes the release of the ball.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4-41: Shooting, Try, Tap
ART. 1 The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try
or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne
shooter.
ART. 2 A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three
points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal
when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or
attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand
as a foul could prevent release of the ball.
ART. 3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually
precedes the release of the ball.

Let's try it this way. If I have the ball on offense, in the paint and jump with it I can make it look to you, the referee and the world, that I'm going to shoot it. I may be thinking pass the entire time. If I am fouled at that moment you have to make a judgment on whether I was attempting to shoot or not. If I'm not fouled you don't have to make that judgment yet. If instead of shooting it, I dump it down to A2 are you going to start the 3 count in lane over? No. I didn't shoot it, I passed it so team control continues.

In the OP the player starts up with the ball and it slips and flies backwards. If there's a foul while he is going up etc you have to make a judgment at that time as to what you think he was or wasn't doing. If there isn't a foul, wait and see what he does with the ball. If it slips and flies behind him it's a fumble. Team control continues. If he releases it and it looks like a try to you then that's what it is.

In summary--a fumble is a fumble. A try is a try....

[deecee]

We are paid the big bucks to determine if a player was passing or shooting. The expectation when a player goes airborne and it's towards the basket (or they are open and facing the basket) it's a shot attempt. 9999 out of 10000 times it's clear as day. I'm ok getting that 1 time wrong.

[BryanV21]

Some are comparing this to fouling situations, but is that right? The ruling for when a player is fouled (during a shot or not) is not necessarily the same as when a player fumbles the ball. Right?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by deecee

We are paid the big bucks to determine if a player was passing or shooting. The expectation when a player goes airborne and it's towards the basket (or they are open and facing the basket) it's a shot attempt. 9999 out of 10000 times it's clear as day. I'm ok getting that 1 time wrong.

What I am saying is that if a player is at the top of the key, goes up with ball and looks like he is going to shoot it, but the ball slips out of his hands and flies behind him that is not a try and a loss of team control. That's a fumble. If the ball went backward into the BC and offense was first to touch it i would call BC violation. He was going to shoot it but he didn't get a shot off. it slipped. I watch the whole play. Just because he started a motion upward with the ball that could be interpreted as a shot doesn't mean that everything that follows IS a shot/try, imo. The ball in the OP was fumbled backwards. I don't call that a try and thus a loss of team control. thx

[Camron Rust]

Once the ball is no longer in player control and it was not released on a try, the player is no longer attempting to score and it is no longer a try. The player is also not an airborne shooter because he/she didn't release the ball on a try.

[BillyMac]

4-41-4: The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the
throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball
becomes dead.

In the case of the fumbled (slipped) "attempt", was it ever a try, and if so, it no longer is a try when it was "certain" that the throw is "unsuccessful"?

Couldn't it have been a try for the split second that the player had the ball in his hand, as determined by the official ("A1 jumps to attempt") to be an attempt, but then the try ends a split second later when the ball is fumbled (slips)?

Remember, in the official’s judgment, if the player is attempting to throw for goal, then that, by definition, is a try, not matter how pretty, ugly, successful, or unsuccessful the attempt may be.

In any case, it's all academic because if the try is never released, then team control doesn't end.

Unless, of course, somebody tries to convince us that the slip (fumble) was a "release".

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4-41-4: The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the
throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball
becomes dead.

In the case of the fumbled (slipped) "attempt", was it ever a try, and if so, it no longer is a try when it was "certain" that the throw is "unsuccessful"?

Couldn't it have been a try for the split second that the player had the ball in his hand, as determined by the official ("A1 jumps to attempt") to be an attempt, but then the try ends a split second later when the ball is fumbled (slips)?

Remember, in the official’s judgment, if the player is attempting to throw for goal, then that, by definition, is a try, not matter how pretty, ugly, successful, or unsuccessful the attempt may be.

In any case, it's all academic because if the try is never released, then team control doesn't end.

Unless, of course, somebody tries to convince us that the slip (fumble) was a "release".

See what Cameron said. Watch the whole play. If there is a foul while player is going up then you have to make a decision. Otherwise wait to see what happens and that will tell you what to do. Again, a fumble is a fumble....I'm fine with these debates but you might consider PM ing some folks. I think, at least on this issue, you might be bringing more confusion... Thx

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

... a fumble is a fumble....

Agree. But can a try, i.e., an attempt to throw for a goal (habitual throwing movement to start a try), precede a fumble (slip)?

[Nevadaref]

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...mpt-video.html

[RefBob]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...mpt-video.html

Looks like in the video the official called an illegal dribble violation. Maybe because white touched the ball twice before it hit the floor? I want to make sure that I understand the possible interpretations of the OP that are being discussed in this thread.

First, A1 was attempting a try and it ended very badly in a fumble. Nevertheless, because A1 was attempting a try he could recover (rebound) the ball and dribble (even if he had dribbled before).

Second, A1's fumble was not a try for goal, but because it was a fumble he could recover the ball and dribble (if he had not dribbled before).

Third, A1 was an airborne shooter, and his only options were to pass or attempt a try. If in the official's opinion, the fumble was not a try then it would be a violation for A1 to recover the ball. (Presumably, because this would be a traveling violation because A1 started a dribble with his pivot foot off the floor?)

Thanks.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by requintero

A1's fumble was not a try for goal ...

Of course it's a try. It's an attempt to throw for a goal (habitual throwing movement to start a try).

Was the try released, which would have ended team control? Aye, there's the rub.

I, for one, believe that the try was released. It was an ugly, unsuccessful release, but it was a release.

Team control ends on the release of a try. White 3 can legally recover the ball at any time, even legally taking steps to do such, and can legally do anything with it, pass, shoot, dribble, or request a time out.

To play Devil's advocate, some might say that the try ends when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, that the fumble came before the release, thus ending the try before the release, which maintained team control for the White Team. In this case White 3 could legally recover the ball, even legally taking steps to do such, because a player can always recover an accidental, unintentional fumble, but White 3 may be limited to what he can legally do next depending on what preceded the accidental, unintentional fumble. In this case he already lifted his pivot foot to shoot, so the Devil probably (having trouble finding a rule citation for this) wouldn't allow him to legally start a new dribble.

But I'm not the Devil, I'm only his advocate, and as Flip Wilson used to say, "The Devil made me do it".