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Old Fri Mar 04, 2016, 10:56am
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Duke/Virginia PC/B call

There are several things to talk about in this play. At the 9 minute mark of the 3rd quarter, there is a PC/B play. As I saw it live, I had a pc. However upon further review, I see that the C points for a pc, but the L indicates a block. [If memory serves, there are no blarges in the women's ncaa game.] My questions are: 1) CC/ICC, and 2) whose primary.
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Old Fri Mar 04, 2016, 11:02am
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Triple L,

You forgot to note in your title that this was a UVA/Duke Women's game.

I don't think Jeff posts those.
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Old Fri Mar 04, 2016, 11:57am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
Triple L,

You forgot to note in your title that this was a UVA/Duke Women's game.

I don't think Jeff posts those.
No I do not and I also do not post very local coverage either if that is the case. Now if someone has an idea of how I can get the ACC Network type coverage or even the PAC-10 Network coverage I am more than happy to start posting those situations.

Right now everything I post is from TV feeds and some ESPN feeds.

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Old Sat Mar 05, 2016, 01:16am
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Here's the play...





As to the questions/observations...in order:

*Lcubed, you're correct. Blarges do not exist in NCAAW. (A.R. 174: When the officials signal simultaneously, they shall get together and agree to give the call to the official who had the play originate in his/her primary. When the officials disagree that the fouls occurred simultaneously, they shall determine which foul occurred first. Once a decision is reached, that foul is reported to the official scorer and the appropriate penalty is assessed)

*This was a block so it was an ICC.

*As to whose primary it is, there's this from the Women's CCA manual:

Quote:
*On drives from the C toward the L, the C is responsible for the play all the way to the basket.

*On drives down the lane and below the free-throw line, the L is responsible for the play all the way to the basket.
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Old Sat Mar 05, 2016, 06:12am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
Triple L,

You forgot to note in your title that this was a UVA/Duke Women's game.

I don't think Jeff posts those.
Mea culpa, I did forget to include that caveat. Thanks to JMF!
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Old Sat Mar 05, 2016, 07:09am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JetMetFan View Post
As to the questions/observations...in order:

*Lcubed, you're correct. Blarges do not exist in NCAAW.

*This was a block so it was an ICC.

*As to whose primary it is, there's this from the Women's CCA manual:
Okay, it wasn't a blarge by mechanic, but I can assume that you're taught to withhold a preliminary.

I said live it looked to be a charge. On replay, I have a block. The defender didn't establish LGP prior to the beginning of the shooter's motion. ICC - I agree.

According to NCAAW mechanics, this play was then the C's all the way. In the clip, the L has his eyes on the play all the way to the end. If the C is following the ball into the paint, he had to pick up the defender late. I would assume that this play would be discussed in the postgame.
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Old Sat Mar 05, 2016, 08:20am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lcubed48 View Post
I said live it looked to be a charge. On replay, I have a block. The defender didn't establish LGP prior to the beginning of the shooter's motion. ICC - I agree.

According to NCAAW mechanics, this play was then the C's all the way. In the clip, the L has his eyes on the play all the way to the end. If the C is following the ball into the paint, he had to pick up the defender late. I would assume that this play would be discussed in the postgame.
That's not the criterion. The correct criterion is LGP prior to the shooter leaving the floor. (and that's the criterion in NCAAM as well, I think)

No, this is L's call. The drive was down the lane.

And, I know it's going to be obvious, but what is "ICC?"

Last edited by bob jenkins; Sat Mar 05, 2016 at 08:23am.
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Old Sat Mar 05, 2016, 08:53am
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Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
That's not the criterion. The correct criterion is LGP prior to the shooter leaving the floor. (and that's the criterion in NCAAM as well, I think)

No, this is L's call. The drive was down the lane.

And, I know it's going to be obvious, but what is "ICC?"
ICC = Incorrect call.

I thought that the call should have been the lead's.
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Old Sat Mar 05, 2016, 09:10am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
That's not the criterion. The correct criterion is LGP prior to the shooter leaving the floor. (and that's the criterion in NCAAM as well, I think)

No, this is L's call. The drive was down the lane.

And, I know it's going to be obvious, but what is "ICC?"
You beat me to this. I disagreed with every point that L^3 just listed.

Upon repeated viewings, I have the defender in position before the offensive player goes airborne (both feet leave the floor), so the correct call is a charging foul.
Based upon the mechanics for NCAAW this would be the Lead's primary call. Unfortunately, the Lead made the wrong decision. I feel that this is a failure of the system. The is no way that the Lead can look through the body of the defender to see when the offensive play goes airborne. On the other hand, the C has a wonderful open-look at this action. Not surprisingly, the C signaled a charge. The NCAAW need to rethink the mechanic for this type of action.
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Old Sat Mar 05, 2016, 09:29am
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The defendant was stationary upon contact but was still moving when A1 went airborne, imo.

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Old Sat Mar 05, 2016, 10:47am
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This isn't a screening play. Being "stationary" is not required and the player is allowed to be moving at the time of contact. The rules allow the defender to jump into the air vertically, or even turn or duck to absorb contact.

Please be precise, if you are going to make a judgment on this play. It's only about reaching a position on the court before the opponent becomes airborne. Don't fall into the misguided thinking that the defender must be a perfectly still statue to take a charge.
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Old Sat Mar 05, 2016, 11:10am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
You beat me to this. I disagreed with every point that L^3 just listed.

Upon repeated viewings, I have the defender in position before the offensive player goes airborne (both feet leave the floor), so the correct call is a charging foul.
Based upon the mechanics for NCAAW this would be the Lead's primary call. Unfortunately, the Lead made the wrong decision. I feel that this is a failure of the system. The is no way that the Lead can look through the body of the defender to see when the offensive play goes airborne. On the other hand, the C has a wonderful open-look at this action. Not surprisingly, the C signaled a charge. The NCAAW need to rethink the mechanic for this type of action.

This is the leads primary call in NCAAM too. Contact was with a secondary defender on a play going to the basket, and in the lane. The only difference between men and women is we would have reported both fouls, and gone to the arrow to determine whose ball.
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Old Sat Mar 05, 2016, 11:28am
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The Case Of The Stationary Basketball Player ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
The defendant was stationary ...
... says Perry Mason.



(I realize that an obsolete definition of defendant is defender, but the word still seemed funny in it's context.)
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Mar 05, 2016 at 11:34am.
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Old Sat Mar 05, 2016, 11:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny d View Post
This is the leads primary call in NCAAM too. Contact was with a secondary defender on a play going to the basket, and in the lane. The only difference between men and women is we would have reported both fouls, and gone to the arrow to determine whose ball.
Small nit, you go to POI, which may be the arrow. (In this case it would be)
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Old Sat Mar 05, 2016, 11:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eyezen View Post
Small nit, you go to POI, which may be the arrow. (In this case it would be)
Yes, I know what the rule is. I was speaking specifically about the play in the video. Perhaps I didn't make that clear.
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