Block/Charge Call in Miami v. Virginia

[OFISHE8]

There was a call tonight during the first half of the Miami v. Virginia mens game which resulted in one official calling a block and the other a charge. I felt that the crew handled it properly in that they got together and discussed the play. What made this situation more interesting is that the player made the shot on the call. After the officials talked about the situation, they decided to call a double foul and go to the possesion arrow. Wave off the basket by UVA and Miami got the ball on the arrow. Good job of taking time and discussing the play, getting the call correct, and explaining to both benches after the call was officially reported. This is a perfect situation to discuss in pregame.

[QuebecRef87]

Yeah nice handling, but how in the world is it possible that a block AND a charge occur at the same time?! I have a problem with the double foul call. Should I?

[TriggerMN]

It happens.

I went to a camp this past summer where one of the evaluators did an Iowa-Wisconsin game last year where he was part of a blarge. His message to us, which you should always do anyways, is signal a foul, but DO NOT signal the type of foul. You know how guys on TV don't put the fist up sometimes, but just go with block, charge, PC, whatever. You put your fist up first and pause, there's no problem.

[nine01c]

In NFHS, wouldn't the basket count since the double foul is not a player control foul?

[Adam]

Originally posted by Wise Weasel
Yeah nice handling, but how in the world is it possible that a block AND a charge occur at the same time?! I have a problem with the double foul call. Should I?

Actually, it's quite possible to have a combination player control and defensive foul. Besides that, the NCAA has, I believe, ruled that when officials come out like with both signals, they have to go with a double foul.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Wise Weasel
Yeah nice handling, but how in the world is it possible that a block AND a charge occur at the same time?! I have a problem with the double foul call. Should I?

No, you shouldn't. By rule, it's a double foul.

Originally posted by nine01c
In NFHS, wouldn't the basket count since the double foul is not a player control foul?

Yes, you're correct.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

BLARGES!! Oh how I have an intense dislike of them. The NFHS and NCAA Men's rules require the officials to handle it as a double personal foul. NCAA Women's rules require the official who has primary to take the call.

NCAA Women's does it the correct way. Why? Because by rule a BLARGE is impossible. Either the defender has obtained/established a legal guarding position or he has not.

Last night, midway through the fourth quarter of girls' H.S. game (two-person crew), I was Trail, opposite the table. A1 was dribbling the ball on the strong side of the court just over the division line in her front court. B1 obtains a legal guarding position against A1 about ten feet from her. B1 is standing about three or four feet above the top of the key extended on the weak side of the court. A1 charges into B1 and we have a double whistle. My partner started to signal a block but I took the call away from him because the ball was in my primary, not to mention I was wondering what the heck he was doing looking at the ball way out in the mid-court area (now there is a term only an old geezer like me would use).

After the game, my partner told me that he was not sure if the ball was in his primary but he had a better angle than me at the play. He was straight lined and I was at right angles to the players. I told him that the play was in my primary and that I had the perfect angle for the play and that it was a charge all the way. He did not argue about the play but he thought that a double foul we could have got away with a double foul.

MTD, Sr.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

NCAA Women's does it the correct way. Why? Because by rule a BLARGE is impossible. Either the defender has obtained/established a legal guarding position or he has not.

By rule a blarge is NOT impossible. I'll agree that in practice the woman's method seems cleaner, someone's gotta give up their call. But in theory it is certainly possible that both officials saw something the other one didn't, calling fouls is judgement. And by rule no official has the right to over rule another official's judgement.

And since I don't work ncaa w rules I'll bite the bullet and go with the double foul on these.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

By rule a blarge is NOT impossible. I'll agree that in practice the woman's method seems cleaner, someone's gotta give up their call. But in theory it is certainly possible that both officials saw something the other one didn't, calling fouls is judgement. And by rule no official has the right to over rule another official's judgement.

And since I don't work ncaa w rules I'll bite the bullet and go with the double foul on these.

Dan:

If B1 has obtained/established a legal guarding position against A1, and has maintained that position when A1 makes contact with B1 in B1 chest, you cannot have a block, you have to have a charge. If B1 does not have a legal guarding position then B1 is blocking.

You cannot have a BLARGE. Either it is a block or a charge, you cannot have both. That fact that we have casebook plays and approved rulings telling us that we should call a double foul is absolute nonsense. Just read the definition for guarding.

MTD, Sr.

[BktBallRef]

Mark, none of that means that two officials won't make a call on the same play and have two different opinions. It's not always as black and white on the floor as it is when you write it.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Mark, none of that means that two officials won't make a call on the same play and have two different opinions. It's not always as black and white on the floor as it is when you write it.

BBR:

Sure it is as simple as black and white. You just cannot have a block and charge involving the same two players. The rules do not allow it. One official is correct and the other official is incorrect.

MTD, Sr.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

BBR:

Sure it is as simple as black and white. You just cannot have a block and charge involving the same two players. The rules do not allow it. One official is correct and the other official is incorrect.

MTD, Sr.

So it is impossible for B1 to step into A1 with lower body contact at the exact moment that A1 extends their hand or forearm to push off B1, and for that to happen when one official sees B1 commit a block and another sees A1 commit a player control foul?

Both players caused illegal contact, per the rules, at approximately the same time.

[canuckrefguy]

Just wondering....

Under NCAA rules, if we call a double foul, would we not award the ball back to the team in control (instead of going to the arrow)?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
Just wondering....

Under NCAA rules, if we call a double foul, would we not award the ball back to the team in control (instead of going to the arrow)?

You are correct. You also do not reset the shot clock as well.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
[/B]

You just cannot have a block and charge involving the same two players. The rules do not allow it.
[/B][/QUOTE]The rules do not allow it?

Lah me, Mark, you've come up with some real dandies over the years, but this one tops them all.

NFHS Rule 4-19-7 and NFHS Case book play 4.19.7SitC

'Nuff said!

And the sad part is that you are very aware of those plainly written rules!

Lah me!