Missed request. Two-man.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Wanna bet?

Let me help you out here,Chuckie. Slappy,who is usually an immaculate and accurate speller,left the "y" out of "mahem"(sic) in one of his posts.Ol' JR,being kind of an antisocial a$$hole(as well as also being a general pain in the a$$),has since tried to repeatedly point that fact out to him.I would dare say that Slappy is well aware of what I've been doing,because-being Slappy-he has been doing his damndest to return the favor.

Now,don't forget to come in out of the rain!

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Sep 19th, 2003 at 12:53 AM]

Tell what I'm thinking JR - the next time MTD uses "where" in place of "wear" I'll just keep my mouth shut. (Yeah, sure I will.)

Anyway, thanks for the compliment on my speling, I shoor due apreshiate it. Like I all ways tell my kidz: go in the kitchen and grab me another beer...wait that's not it...here it is - gud learnin iz its own re-award.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Like I all ways tell my kidz: go in the kitchen and grab me another beer...wait that's not it...here it is - gud learnin iz its own re-award.

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch sutdy at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig, huh?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

But I figured that you didn't get the relevance of Danno's link. That's why I was taking a little pleasure in your question. [/B]

Uh,Stevie Wonder coulda seen what Slappy was trying to do. [/B][/QUOTE]Let's get Stevie to weigh in on this. Surely he frequents this board too. After all, so many coaches claims he could do a better job than us!

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch sutdy at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig, huh?

Cuhck,

Paelse tkae yuor micdetaions!!

[NCAAREF]

Well it will be a lot easier here in NY this year to resolve this discussion as the calling official on a shooting foul will now be table side. New HS mechanics starting to emulate three whistle mechanics.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by NCAAREF
Well it will be a lot easier here in NY this year to resolve this discussion as the calling official on a shooting foul will now be table side. New HS mechanics starting to emulate three whistle mechanics.

This is for a 2-whistle game? Trail calls a shooting foul and stays at Trail? No switch? Is this all of New York state?

[NCAAREF]

Not sure about the Federation, but HS Girls which follow NCAA is going to this across the state and so are JUCCO women. You're right, if trail calls a shooting foul he/she will either walk & talk over to the table and remain there or just turn and report the foul if already there. No switch. Just got back from our state meeting this weekend and now I have to go back and teach all of our old dogs a new trick.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by NCAAREF
Not sure about the Federation, but HS Girls which follow NCAA is going to this across the state and so are JUCCO women. You're right, if trail calls a shooting foul he/she will either walk & talk over to the table and remain there or just turn and report the foul if already there. No switch. Just got back from our state meeting this weekend and now I have to go back and teach all of our old dogs a new trick.

Hey NCAA guy, by saying this is a NY Girls and women's juco mechanic are you saying this is the new cca 2 person mechanic for ncaa women? Apply to men also? Anyway, I'm not getting what you're saying - does this aply to fouls that reverse the ball only (offensive fouls)? I tend to think so from what you have here.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

does this aply to fouls that reverse the ball only (offensive fouls)? I tend to think so from what you have here.

Doesn't sound like it to me Dan. He specifically says "shooting foul". NCAA doesn't shoot FTs on offensive fouls anymore, right? Sounds like he's saying that the calling official always goes to the trail, and that they're gonna do this in HS!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Doesn't sound like it to me Dan. He specifically says "shooting foul". NCAA doesn't shoot FTs on offensive fouls anymore, right? Sounds like he's saying that the calling official always goes to the trail, and that they're gonna do this in HS!

Yep, good catch. I guess we'll just have to wait.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Doesn't sound like it to me Dan. He specifically says "shooting foul". NCAA doesn't shoot FTs on offensive fouls anymore, right? Sounds like he's saying that the calling official always goes to the trail, and that they're gonna do this in HS!

Right -- but he also says "goes table side."

Isn't the trail in two-person opposite the table on shooting fouls?

[NCAAREF]

Well let me try and clear up some of the confusion I created. When I referenced "shooting" foul I was trying to use it in terms of the original example, but you're right. This year in NCAA Womens, which is what we follow in NY for HS Girls ball, the new two person mechanics is for the calling official to go table side. If you're shooting FT's, then you will be table side as trail, no longer opposite. For the most times, whenever you call a foul, regardless of whether you're shooting FT's, the calling official will end up table side this year. Now I'm not going to go into all the mechanics and exceptions to the new mechanics as there are some as you can imagine. What they are trying to accomplish is to get the calling official near the benches ala three person mechanics. Not sure if the CCA two person manual is going to show this as I haven't seen one as of yet.

[tomegun]

As far as the original topic of this thread goes, I don't think they did anything wrong. Sometimes it is hard to grant a timeout in this situation. The trail has a minimum of 4 players to watch, the shooter and 3 people behind the line. I say at least 3 people depending on pre-game and how many players are in lane spaces. With 6 players along the lane if the done by the book doesn't the lead have 3 players to watch compared to the trail's seven? Three of these seven could be all the way at the other end of the court doing all kinds of things to each other. The trail also chops the clock for a missed free throw. The trail should also make sure the clock starts if the free throw does not go in because the trail could have action directly in front of him. During a press the trail also has to find a happy medium of help and watching players in what is to become the new front court. Taking all of this into account and mentally putting myself in this position, the coach better REQUEST the timeout because there is max of about 6 seconds (two to get the ball and four to throw it in) until it is too late for him. Six seconds is a short time when doing all of the above.
Why would you have to turn your back to grant the timeout when the trail should be facing the table? If the answer is you are talking about the lead then I don't buy that because the lead will definatly have their hands full.
Why can't you tell the coaches voice from someone else's voice after 31+ minutes. This is a small detail but something that can get you over the hump.
Is you positioning such that you can't see something out of the corner of your eye? The same sideline the coach is behind is your responsibility! I think the right position would allow you to see the coach motioning for something.
I still think the onus is on the coach for this timeout. We, as officials can only be mechanically sound for the court action and attempt to catch the request.

I've officiating a two-person game and stayed table side for shooting fouls. In all situations I can think of it should be said that the calling official will go table side ONLY on shooting fouls. All other situations would be a switch and since there are only two people you go where your partner was and your partner goes to the designated spot to take the ball out.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by tomegun
As far as the original topic of this thread goes, ... Taking all of this into account and mentally putting myself in this position, the coach better REQUEST the timeout because there is max of about 6 seconds (two to get the ball and four to throw it in) until it is too late for him. Six seconds is a short time when doing all of the above.
Why would you have to turn your back to grant the timeout when the trail should be facing the table? ...
I still think the onus is on the coach for this timeout. We, as officials can only be mechanically sound for the court action and attempt to catch the request.

I've officiating a two-person game and stayed table side for shooting fouls. In all situations I can think of it should be said that the calling official will go table side ONLY on shooting fouls. All other situations would be a switch and since there are only two people you go where your partner was and your partner goes to the designated spot to take the ball out.

The time out request is generally requested by the team that is shooting - not the one taking the ball out after the shot. So the shooting team has only until the other team secures the ball - generally less than 2 seconds and probably less than 1.

All other arguments aside, the official (in general the Trail, who is facing the table) must recognize the situation and expect a request. To glance at the bench following a made shot is nothing. It is very simple and requires very little effort. It occurs automatically as you leave the rebounding action and turn to head down the court into the Lead position. In my opinion, it is obviously incumbent upon the Trail official to recognize the need and it is incumbent upon the coach to make the visual request. Otherwise, missed opportunity.

Question of NCAAdude. So, if in 2-man mechanics, the Trail is going to stand with his back to the benches (within earshot of the shooting team's coach) is the Lead going to also move across the key?

Seems to be contrary positioning. Now Trail cannot see the benches or scorekeeper (should be watching the rebounding action). Now Trail is next to the "HOT" area raising potential for angry coach interaction rather than requiring the coach to yell across the court if he wants to be stupid. If Lead moves to the other side, (which I assume he must to maintain the boxing-in principle) he is now looking through all the players and rebounding action to see benches and scorekeeper area and partner.

What is the advantage is this change???? Perhaps I'm lost too?

[tomegun]

Downtown, it is not "incumbent" on either official to recognize the need. See, that is part of our problem, we can anticipate but if you think you should recognize the need then you need to be coaching.

As far as an official being in the "hot spot" goes, the changes have occured to bring the calling official closer to the coaches so there isn't any yelling across the court. We have to have the courage to make calls and communicate with coaches. Communication is a must!